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adrian_b 2 days ago [-]
> “One of the biggest flaws with the IAU definition is that you can have the same object in two different orbits,” says Kornfeld. “In one, it’s considered a planet, and in the other, it’s not considered a planet.”
No, there is no flaw in this, and moreover there is nothing new in this. This is how it has always been, it is not something invented recently.
In the Solar System, there are 3 Mercury-sized satellites and other 3 Moon-sized satellites, besides the Moon. If they had not been in their orbits as satellites, they might have very well been planets. Therefore the old definition of "planet" also depended on the orbit of the body, not only on the size and shape of the body.
Most of those satellites are bigger than Pluto. Triton, the biggest satellite of Neptune, had been in the distant past another planet with an orbit close to Pluto, but it was captured by Neptune and it has become a satellite. Otherwise it would have remained a "dwarf planet", orbiting close to Pluto. So Triton was demoted from "planet" to "satellite", by Nature, not by a human organization.
The current definition of "planets" and "dwarf planets" is fine.
If anything, there are too few planet classes, not too many. A more useful classification is into big planets, medium planets and small or dwarf planets, where the Solar system has 4 big planets, 4 medium planets, and a lot of small planets.
The big planets, i.e. which are big enough to retain the volatile chemical elements, like hydrogen and noble gases, not only the refractory elements, have a very different chemical composition from the medium planets, and this difference will also exist in any other stellar system that has condensed from gases like those at the origin of the Solar System, with more oxygen than carbon (there exists the possibility of stellar systems with a different chemical composition than the Solar System, formed by condensing from gas mixtures with more carbon than oxygen).
pavlov 2 days ago [-]
There’s the Vulcan planet classification system where Earth is a Class M world, but I guess that won’t be adopted until 2154.
skissane 2 days ago [-]
> The current definition of "planets" and "dwarf planets" is fine.
It’s serviceable, but is it ideal?
What’s the scientific advantage in categorising “planets” and “dwarf planets” as two separate categories, compared to unifying them into a single category (possibly while retaining the distinction as two different subtypes of “planet”)?
Which system would be more scientifically useful? Which would be more parsimonious?
chabska 1 days ago [-]
The current set of planets, we are quite confident to be complete, there are no more planets out there. The set of known dwarf planets is likely to be incomplete, we think there are many more out there. I think that's a useful distinction.
ivan_gammel 2 days ago [-]
I‘m seeing this classification for the first time, but it sounds very reasonable and feels like it should have been like that. Is it your idea or is there any story behind it?
andrewflnr 2 days ago [-]
We already have the terms "rocky planet" and "gas giant" that pretty much cover it. The only thing missing is an official IAU decision which, well, would have even less effect than the Pluto thing I'm guessing, since it would just be introducing a sub-division in the category.
ivan_gammel 2 days ago [-]
Oh, right. It does exist, it is very accurate, but the names sound like LOTR party:
- a gang of dwarfs
- some rocky ones
- and gas giants
- and one star to rule them all
adrian_b 2 days ago [-]
Many people use it, but it is not something codified formally by an international organization, like in the IAU definitions of "planet" and "dwarf planet".
pdonis 2 days ago [-]
Since the Moon's orbit is always concave towards the Sun, one could even argue that the Moon is a planet, not a satellite, it just happens to have an orbit that is closely coupled to that of another planet, Earth.
As I understand it, in fact, there was discussion about defining systems like Earth-Moon as double planets, but that didn't make it into the final definition.
nephihaha 2 days ago [-]
I have heard people argue that we are in fact in a kind of binary planetary system. No other planet has such a large satellite relative to its size, until you get to the likes of Pluto etc.
Dylan16807 2 days ago [-]
The Earth is closer but I don't think there's any good argument to say it's actually a binary system. Notably the Earth-Moon barycenter stays inside the Earth, and the Sun-Jupiter barycenter doesn't stay inside the Sun. But barycenters are too easy to get outside of objects anyway.
pdonis 2 days ago [-]
As I understand it, one suggested "double planet" definition was that the barycenter would have to be outside both objects. Earth-Moon doesn't (quite) satisfy that condition, but for example, Pluto-Charon does.
nephihaha 1 days ago [-]
The Earth-Moon system is certainly anomalous within our Solar System. There is no such equivalent among the three other rocky planets, and while there are large moons around the other planets, the planets themselves are far larger.
fluoridation 2 days ago [-]
>the Moon's orbit is always concave towards the Sun
The Sun's gravitational pull on the Moon is always stronger than the Earth's. (Do the math and see--on average the Sun's pull is more than twice as strong as the Earth's.) So the net acceleration of the Moon is always towards the Sun, never towards the Earth.
joquarky 2 days ago [-]
What I don't get in this is why is it wrong to leave off the "dwarf" adjective? We drop adjectives all the time once the specific subject is identified.
lloda 2 days ago [-]
Pluto was only discovered in the 1930s. The only cultural heritage of Pluto as a ‘planet’ is a few decades of science schoolbooks, but going by these comments you'd think it's been in the same list as Jupiter since the Babylonians.
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
Unfortunately this is both a false dichotomy fallacy and an appeal to extremes.
1. Yes, there are culturally significant things that have happened since the 1930s, including the discovery of Pluto and its designation as being a planet. In fact, in 2006 -- far more recently -- a group of people got together -- known as the IAU -- and they also performed a cultural act amongst themselves when they decided to stop calling Pluto a planet, undertaking a social process ("voting") in adopting criteria for doing so.
2. If you would rather define a planet as a wandering star that's visible to unaided humans in the night sky, I'd respect that, and I kind of like the idea. It's somewhat romantic, and it avoids the myriad issues that the article here discusses that have caused the 2006 IAU definition to start to smell bad. However, it's really none of my business. The problem comes up when you police what other people call things, not when you decide to subscribe to the IAU of your own volition.
DSMan195276 2 days ago [-]
Yeah apparently people are getting harassed on the regular about Pluto, I'm a little confused.
Aeolun 1 days ago [-]
Easy to say when you didn't grow up counting Pluto as a planet. I still feel a bit depressed every time I tell my son "And there's... 8 planets in the solar system."
Because apparently sometimes between the moment I left elementary school and he went there, some dudes decided that Pluto didn't qualify as a planet after all.
expedition32 1 days ago [-]
Well the definition of science is that it can change when new data is found- that's why it is not a religion.
Our understanding of the universe is after all quite rudimentary. How many centuries did people fantasise about forests on Venus?
nephihaha 2 days ago [-]
Uranus and Neptune don't have a long human heritage either. Neither appears to have been known to the Babylonians.
p-e-w 2 days ago [-]
Uranus has been observed since antiquity, but wasn’t recognized as a planet.
nephihaha 1 days ago [-]
Herschel put Uranus on the map, so to speak. It is barely visible and never played a large part in ancient astrology/astronomy (I use both terms here as they were not separate at the time.)
paxys 2 days ago [-]
The "battle" for Pluto is an interesting case study in indoctrination. A few generations of children grew up being taught a specific fact, saw it in textbooks, learned mnemonics about it, had memorable cartoon characters named after it, and then one day they were told – with sound reasoning and plenty of scientific evidence – that they should now update their views on the topic.
You would think this group of well educated, critically thinking adults would go "sure", but something fundamental in their brains just refuses to let them accept this meaningless change to their lives.
Now scale this up to actual impactful topics like religion, politics, relationships, race and more and most conflicts around the world start to make sense.
Ekaros 1 days ago [-]
Makes me think of possible things with dinosaurs. I haven't followed anything lately but them going from lizards/reptiles to well more bird like creatures is likely similar but less observed.
bigstrat2003 2 days ago [-]
It's a definition. That is not a matter of scientific inquiry or fact, the definition is whatever people want it to be. You're belittling people for ignoring scientific evidence, but there's no scientific evidence to ignore, and cannot be.
placebo 1 days ago [-]
I agree with you. However that doesn't explain why people get so upset about a definition being changed - seems just as silly.
odyssey7 20 hours ago [-]
They get upset when others try to exert control over them for making their own informed choices.
It’s plainly un-American to have speech governed by a committee. Thankfully, the IAU has no authority over me. Why won’t people leave me alone over my decision to not tether my own positions about how I use my own native language to the whims of the IAU? It’s as if we have thoughtcrimes now, with vigilante irritators at the ready.
fluoridation 2 days ago [-]
The thing is, there is no real evidence to back up the classification. The assignment between words and objects is arbitrary. A consistent definition for "planet" can be given and immediately after define the Solar System as being comprised of nine planets, with the understanding that a "planet" and a "planet of the Solar System" are similar but distinct concepts. The same is already done in biology with paraphyletic groups, with for example "reptiles" not including birds.
(I say this as someone who doesn't care either way whether Pluto is a planet or not.)
odyssey7 20 hours ago [-]
Yep, it’s a word. We can make more of them. We use them differently depending on the context. It’s strange that armchair scientists seem unable to understand how words work. They seem to use words fine enough? But they struggle with the abstract concept of what words are and how their meaning comes from how they are used rather than from committees.
I vote we cut science funding for universities since the humanities are clearly going through difficult times.
Planktonne 2 days ago [-]
The actual problem here is weirdly aggressive nerds who are incapable of nuance, and insist that an astronomical classification (Pluto is not a planet by the IAU definition) should be used in non-astronomical contexts.
Historically and culturally, Pluto is considered a planet. An IAU classification shouldn't be used to try and retroactively change that, because the IAU does not have control over history and culture. It's a fun fact (did you know that Pluto is not classified as a planet by astronomers?) not a diktat.
Similarly, a banana is 'officially' a berry, which means that it is classified as a berry by botanists. This does not mean it is considered a berry in any other contexts. If you told someone you had made a berry crumble and it was filled with bananas, you would look strange. We have countless examples of this (often focused around food): a tomato does not belong in a fruit salad no matter what botanists say.
Different terms are used with different specificity in different settings. Language and culture and [older disciplines] are not governed by the rules of [newer disciplines or bodies]. If people with 'I love space' t-shirts would stop "um actually"-ing, no one would have a problem.
BeetleB 2 days ago [-]
> Historically and culturally, Pluto is considered a planet.
A very brief period of history. Give it 50 years and the number of people who will call it a planet will be close to 0.
Let's not overstate Pluto's significance in culture. People call it a planet only because that's what they were taught in school. Not because of other (very few) cultural references. As it has been dropped from the curriculum, so shall it be dropped from people's minds.
Compared to the other planets it's rarely referred to in stories, etc. It has very little significance in today's culture beyond the fact that it was taught in school.
That's not the case for something like Jupiter. If they decided tomorrow that gas giants are no longer planets, it will remain in arts and culture. Pluto? Highly unlikely.
I don't think my kid knows about Pluto. That doesn't bother me in the slightest.
alnwlsn 24 hours ago [-]
This is not insignificant. The period of Pluto's planethood represents just about 0.76% of recorded human history, but that does cover around 7% of the total number of people who have ever lived, about 10x the 'average'. Of course a lot of culture comes out of that. I think the 20th century will be important to historians for a very very long time.
BeetleB 23 hours ago [-]
> The period of Pluto's planethood represents just about 0.76% of recorded human history, but that does cover around 7% of the total number of people who have ever lived, about 10x the 'average'. Of course a lot of culture comes out of that.
It's an odd way to analyze it. Plenty of things have been known for longer and it doesn't bother us if they're not taught in school, etc.
odyssey7 20 hours ago [-]
The meaning of a word comes from how its speakers use it.
When people stop referring to Pluto as a planet, it will cease to be one.
Until then, we are living in a reality in which Pluto both is a planet and is not a planet, depending on the context.
BeetleB 14 hours ago [-]
> When people stop referring to Pluto as a planet, it will cease to be one.
I'm not disagreeing. What I'm saying is that compared to most other planets, people are going to stop referring to Pluto as a planet, by the mere fact that they'll stop teaching it in school. It has no cultural momentum unlike Mars, Venus, etc.
zdragnar 2 days ago [-]
Peanuts, cashews, almonds, walnuts, pecans, Brazil nuts and pistachios are culinary nuts but NOT botanical nuts.
Botanical berries: Bananas, tomatoes, grapes, cucumbers, eggplants, avocados and peppers, but NOT strawberries, raspberries, blackberries or mulberries.
Scientists really should have made up their own categories instead of using our words.
jerf 2 days ago [-]
"Scientists really should have made up their own categories instead of using our words."
If they could do it all over again probably most of them would. The sciences all grew organically too. Some of these things like "berries" aren't even just the product of one reclassification, they're the product of several over the course of decades or centuries, which is how they get so common-sense silly over time.
zdragnar 2 days ago [-]
We had the perfect opportunity to introduce new names when the IAU created the "dwarf planet" classification in 2006. That was literally the perfect time to do it all over.
odyssey7 20 hours ago [-]
Although there may have been a chance from an opportunism standpoint, the wisdom needed to do that well was clearly absent.
Gooblebrai 2 days ago [-]
> Scientists really should have made up their own categories instead of using our words.
Doesn't really matter. The public would end up taking science words for their own purposes to sound legitimate. Look at how "quantum" and "energy" is used in alternative medicine.
lokar 2 days ago [-]
They really are the “epicenter” of the problem
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
Well, the thing is, nobody got told, out of nowhere, that the “honorable strawberries” were now called simply “mildly honored straw,” because a committee of so-called experts had expressed their will, and that now everybody had to say “mildly honored straw” instead of “honorable strawberries,” or else they would be *incorrect*, because the science league said so.
The word “planet” signifying a certain reverence, and the fact that a scientific body was now policing everyday language — for the apparently petty reason that we should not honor Pluto as we once did — it was quite a misstep for how people in the public might view science going forward. Unless, perhaps, the idea was to make people more skeptical of scientific results and statements.
bryanlarsen 2 days ago [-]
The alternative was to announce "we now have 10 more planets, and there are probably a bunch more, and we'll probably never really get a definitive number".
That would also have had an impact on the public view of science. Perhaps not as bad, but it would have had an impact.
zdragnar 2 days ago [-]
No, the alternative would be to make up some latin sounding words for planets, dwarf planets, etc. and leave the vulgar planet alone to the standard 9 that we all know are planets.
ummonk 2 days ago [-]
No that would be an argument to return to the original definition of planets (highly visible celestial objects that migrate across the sky, i.e. the Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn).
If you believe in the "standard 9" you're just insisting on returning to a scientific definition of planets but one that is frozen on our scientific understanding from a few decades ago...
zdragnar 1 days ago [-]
The argument is to not make any changes to what people call planets but to instead have taken the opportunity in 2006 to create a separate classification system. Use something vaguely Latin sounding like planitus or whatever.
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
As you can see, there are many valid ways to go about understanding what a planet is in a cultural sense.
DSMan195276 2 days ago [-]
Right, and then everybody would be in the comments complaining about how "everybody is using a new term for planet and it's ridiculous, just call them planets". It's not a battle that can be won.
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
This is what should have happened. (And it’s not too late — Pluto will remain with us for a while yet.)
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
Planets predate modern astronomy. You have to negotiate with the public if you want to change what “planet” means. To most people, in most contexts, it means 8 or 9 specific things that they have specific ideas about, not a theoretical category of infinite objects.
Dylan16807 2 days ago [-]
> Planets predate modern astronomy.
If we're segmenting off "modern astronomy" then Pluto wasn't even discovered yet.
And we discovered Ceres long before Pluto. It would be pretty rude to keep excluding Ceres just because we knew about the asteroid belt before we knew about the Kuiper belt.
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
It’s not about being rude to Pluto so much as about being rude to me.
I’m not a member of the IAU. I don’t adhere to their linguistic prescriptivism, and nobody should expect that I will. Some of their own members do not — the article here explains.
Are you a member of the IAU?
Dylan16807 2 days ago [-]
I didn't say anything about rudeness to Pluto, I was talking about Ceres. I like Ceres. I think it deserves some recognition for being known before even Neptune.
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
By all means, call it what you like and honor it however you like.
I’m not the IAU, and I have no interest whatsoever in emboldening thousands of people to smugly harass you or anybody else about it.
bryanlarsen 2 days ago [-]
Few things sound more like more science than "planets". Telling people "Well actually 'planet' isn't a scientific term, it's a historical / cultural term" will also significantly reduce their trust and interest in science.
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
Hey, don’t blame me, blame the IAU for opening that can of worms. I’m just happy calling Pluto a “planet” and would rather the IAU had left me in peace — they’re the ones who want to argue with me about what words I’m supposed to say and when I’m supposed to say them.
I’d encourage you to think about the impact of science fiction on interest in science. Culture is an extremely powerful force. I don’t think your concern would bear out.
bryanlarsen 2 days ago [-]
There was no do nothing option, the IAU didn't open the can of words. 10 new objects that would be called planets under the old definition were discovered. "Doing nothing" would have led to far more significant changes.
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
Even if they had to do something, they didn’t need to do what they ended up going for — it was a pretty bad option from a scientific standpoint and a needlessly controversial one.
As the article here explains, the 2006 IAU definition doesn’t really make sense or function as a useful model for what a planet is.
xigoi 1 days ago [-]
This is similar to how most people would say that mathematics is about numbers, but the word “number” doesn’t even mean anything in math.
bob1029 2 days ago [-]
> The actual problem here is weirdly aggressive nerds who are incapable of nuance
This is the actual problem everywhere.
ketzu 2 days ago [-]
I wonder how happy each group would be by this solution. Planet as a scientific and non-scientific usage.
Conclusively, science class would not teach Pluto as a planet (it should after all stick to the science) and English class will discuss the cultural impact of planet Pluto! Maybe write poems about the importance and impact of 9 word mnemonics? Sounds fun.
My headcanon is that people would hate it so so much! I can't wait to see that as a distant observer.
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
This would be a really good discussion topic in schools.
People need to understand the dynamic between science and society, because that is an important part of how the world works today.
Pluto is an exemplar.
And also, the value of culture. It might not be a scientific result, but it still shapes our experience of the world. Pluto is beloved.
autoexec 2 days ago [-]
Pluto makes for a great lesson about science itself. Our view of the universe we live in changes over time as we get more information about it. Children should learn to expect that and to understand that it isn't a bad thing, or a flaw with science, but a vital part of the process and when it happens things are working as intended. That means that today Pluto isn't a planet, even though for a small time it used to be considered one, because we learned more about the bodies in our solar system and it no longer made sense to call Pluto a planet. We can explain to children why it shows up in our history, and how we've moved on.
It honestly doesn't have to be a bunch of drama. The problem will pretty much go away after the current generation who grew up learning about Pluto as a planet dies off and gets replaced by a generation who always knew that there were only 8 planets in our solar system. Hopefully they'll also be better prepared to accept changes that come from better understanding.
p-e-w 2 days ago [-]
> Our view of the universe we live in changes over time as we get more information about it.
But that’s not what happened here. The definition was changed. We didn’t learn anything new about Pluto that made us say “ah, we thought Pluto had a solid core but apparently it doesn’t, so it’s not a planet”. All the relevant facts about Pluto remained the same. The reason why it’s no longer considered a planet is because of the term ‘planet’, not because of Pluto.
autoexec 2 days ago [-]
We didn't learn much more about Pluto, other than it wasn't as unique as we once thought. We learned a lot more about other bodies in the Kuiper belt though. By our old classification, suddenly it looked like there could be hundreds of "planets" in our solar system. Our improved understanding of the nature of the Kuiper belt and its inhabitants caused us to reassess which types of features were useful to distinguish a planet from the vast number of smaller objects in our solar system.
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
I appreciate your contribution to the discussion. I’d have to point out that Pluto both is and is not a planet, depending on the context — it depends on whom you ask and the situation in which you ask.
What would you say to scientists and laypersons who consider Pluto to be a planet? How would you persuade them to your own viewpoint? Please give at least three examples and use at least three paragraphs.
autoexec 2 days ago [-]
Pluto is a dwarf planet. It feels like less of a "is and is not" situation, and more of an "isn't, but was once thought to be" situation.
Some people remember being told that it was a planet when they were kids and they cling to that even though we've learned that it doesn't make sense to call it a planet anymore.
Apart from that it shows up as a planet in literature, almost all of which was written before we knew better, just like how the idea of earth being at the center of the universe shows up in literature and was once a part of our culture. The geocentric model had passionate holdouts too, but we've mostly moved on from that idea since and I think we're better off for it.
For scientists and laypersons who aren't just holding onto "planet" for sentimental reasons, I'd recommend the book "How I Killed Pluto and Why It Had It Coming"
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
A geocentric model is observably incorrect.
The word “planet” is neither true nor false. Different people use it to refer to different things.
Kind of like the word “tree.” Some things are trees and some things are not — and it really depends on whom you ask and when you ask them. Most people are able to get along and allow people to refer to whatever trees they want to, because it’s a free country and it really doesn’t make sense to try to control other people over something like that.
autoexec 22 hours ago [-]
> because it’s a free country and it really doesn’t make sense to try to control other people over something like that
No one is trying to control you by defining what words mean. In fact, you're still fully free to call anything you like whatever you want. You risk being misunderstood in certain contexts or assumed to be ignorant in others, but no one will stop you. My guess is that what you personally call a planet or not wont come up very often and will matter very little to anyone else.
odyssey7 20 hours ago [-]
A mention of “the planet Pluto” carries risk that you will be derailed by people who think they are very scientific but in fact are just excited to be able to correct someone.
My language has become politicized. Either I go with the flow and surrender something about my own language, or I risk getting called out or misunderstood as being incorrect if I continue.
It’s easier to let them think they corrected you than to explain your position. People believing that correcting others over superficial word choices counts as being scientific… it’s disappointing.
lirolero 5 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
BoxOfRain 1 days ago [-]
That book title and my vague memory the same author had a hand in naming Eris makes me think they've encountered the Principia Discordia at one time or another.
lirolero 1 days ago [-]
> What would you say to scientists and laypersons who consider Pluto to be a planet?
"Fuck off"
> How would you persuade them to your own viewpoint?
I wouldn't. I don't care about them.
> Please give at least three examples and use at least three paragraphs.
Fuck off!!!
antonvs 2 days ago [-]
> Pluto makes for a great lesson about science itself.
I disagree. Quibbling about a definition like that is like quibbling about whether a certain bird is a black-crowned Night-Heron or a black-crowned Night Heron (without the second hyphen), which is a real controversy that took place.
I suppose it shows a socially constructed, human aspect of science, but it really has very little to do with actually understanding the universe. The universe doesn’t care about our arbitrary stamp-collection-style classification of objects. There’s no equation or physical theory that describes the difference in any meaningful way.
autoexec 2 days ago [-]
In a sense you're right, the need to classify things is really for our convenience. Those classifications can be extremely helpful though and it's for that reason that we try to come up with good systems of classification and re-evaluate what goes where as we learn more.
The universe doesn’t care about our arbitrary stamp-collection-style classification of objects, anymore than it cares about where elements sit on the periodic table, but for us humans having things classified and ordered is a big deal. It's our constant arbitrary naming and organizing and classifying that allows letters to get delivered to my house and packets to reach my network. It gives us more precise language and enables better focus on what matters. It helps build a foundation for teaching and research. It helps to catalogue all we've learned. While you'll find plenty of ego fueled petty squabbles around the naming and classifying of things, it's still a pretty big part of what science does and we'd struggle to teach or coordinate any sort of meaningful science without it.
antonvs 1 days ago [-]
Your point is valid - we do need to classify things for our own mental convenience - but I don't think the Pluto case is an example of it.
In many ways, the Pluto situation is an example of the Buddhist metaphor about the finger pointing at the moon. The finger is not the moon. Obsessing over the definition of "planet" to that degree doesn't actually achieve anything useful - it's a classic example of confusing labels with the thing being labeled.
The Pluto "controversy" was just bad "science" being committed by a committee.
autoexec 21 hours ago [-]
> Your point is valid - we do need to classify things for our own mental convenience - but I don't think the Pluto case is an example of it. Obsessing over the definition of "planet" to that degree doesn't actually achieve anything useful
There are people who feel that it's worth classifying all the objects in our solar system and that doing so is useful. It's pretty much always been that way. The original definition of "planet" was used to classify things visible in the sky and the criteria was simply "stars that moved". The Sun and Moon were "planets". Asteroids were "planets". We've been constantly updating our classifications ever since as new information became available (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_planets).
Pluto was discovered in 1930 after a pair of photographs showed another light in the sky had moved. Until the 1990s we thought Pluto was alone out there at the edge of our solar system, but then we discovered 15760 Albion, followed by another new "planet" named (181708) 1993 FW followed by the discovery of hundreds of other tiny objects until it was realized that Pluto wasn't alone at all. There was a massive belt containing a vast number of small objects past Neptune and Pluto was just one of those small objects (see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Kuiper_b...).
The discovery of a bunch of objects of similar size and composition to Pluto, Eris in particular, made it clear that Pluto just wasn't like the other planets in our system. We had 8 large planets that acted similarly and one tiny planet that was unlike the others because it was just part of a much larger system of smaller objects.
It made perfect sense to refine our definition of what a planet was taking our new understanding into account. It's also reasonable that the job of doing that wouldn't fall to one person to decide on their own. The International Astronomical Union was already responsible for maintaining a set of astronomical naming conventions from the names of stars to the names of specific planetary features like craters. Since we wanted to have a standardized distinction between planets, moons, asteroids and comets and all the other objects in space who else do you think should do that? Having a committee of experts from all over the world seems as close to an ideal as you can get.
As for the definition they settled on being "bad science", it was debated and voted on. There were alternatives proposed, but none of them won out. If somebody ever comes up with something that is clearly better, especially as we learn more about objects outside of our solar system, that option can also be considered and voted on. What other process should we have for those kinds of decisions?
antonvs 17 hours ago [-]
> There are people who feel that it's worth classifying all the objects in our solar system and that doing so is useful.
Up to a point. Part of my point is that the specificity of the new definition of "planet" is a bit silly. It's completely arbitrary. It's certainly not uniquely correct in any sense.
It's also a kind of post-hoc definition which assumes our specific Solar System. For example, let's say you had a rocky body, around the size of Mercury, that had a very eccentric orbit that only reached the Kuiper Belt every few hundred years, at its apoapsis. Would this object "clear its orbit"? Hard to say - the IAU definition isn't precise enough to answer this.
The IAU definition is basically the answer to the question: how do we label the closest eight planets to the Sun as planets without saying that's what we're doing, because we don't want to have to add a whole bunch of KBOs to the list of planets?
None of what the IAU did here constitutes anything resembling real science.
concinds 2 days ago [-]
Which would make the article's subjects "weirdly aggressive nerds who are incapable of nuance, and insist that" a non-astronomical definition be used in an astronomical context.
ludicrousdispla 2 days ago [-]
While reading your comment it occurred to me that virtually all reporting on (or talking about) science involves applying it to an unsuitable context. Schrödinger's cat is probably the most prolific example of this.
p-e-w 2 days ago [-]
[flagged]
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
You’ve explained something very well that I hope certain groups of people will try to internalize.
nephihaha 2 days ago [-]
The term "fish" is a case in point. Traditionally, the term means a creature which lives underwater, which would include whales and dolphins, and indeed used to, despite being mammals.
It gets worse. Whales and dolphins are more closely related to certain fish than those fish are related to some other fish. (As are we by the way.) There are also some fish, such as lungfish or certain eels which can spend more time out of water than whales and dolphins can. Some fish can even breathe air, which undermines another assumption about whales etc.
For some reason, I rarely hear fewer people objecting to jellyfish or shellfish being referred to as fish, even though these are more distantly related to fish than mammals are.
So biologically, the term "fish" doesn't make much sense.
wpollock 2 days ago [-]
Your point is fishy. But if the IAU definition changes to "a body orbiting a star", we can rename them to "paparazzi".
nephihaha 1 days ago [-]
That was quite funny. I think my point is that terms are not always as precise as people think they are.
As others have stated, there appears to be some kind of spectrum. Some of the inner planets have more in common with the moons of Jupiter and Saturn in some regards, than they do with Jupiter and Saturn themselves. For a start they have a surface that can be landed on. (Maybe not so much in the case of Venus or Io!!!)
Pluto's most obvious problem is that it is too similar in size to a large number of other objects. But it does have some resemblances to planets and larger moons. I'm not keen on the phrase "dwarf planet" because it makes me think of objects that are much smaller than Pluto is.
j45 2 days ago [-]
My understanding was part of the definition was changed thereby recategorizing Pluto?
jerf 2 days ago [-]
You know, this is really just a fantastic opportunity to realize the phenomenal psychological power of "headcanon". Who cares if Pluto is or is not tagged with the word "planet" by some organization you know effectively nothing about, have no control over, has no control over you, and couldn't so much as move a pebble on the planetary body in question any time in the next 20 years, if not more?
Have whatever emotional relationship you like with "Pluto" and don't wait around for others to validate it. It's fine. Nobody can stop you. I'm a bit fond of Ceres myself. Nobody can stop me. Nobody needs to approve it. Take control. Write your own headcanon.
autoexec 2 days ago [-]
I agree, call whatever you like whatever you want. Just don't expect schools to teach that to anyone else. We get enough of that from the folks who want to replace science class with "God did it".
2 days ago [-]
b0rtb0rt 2 days ago [-]
who did do it?
autoexec 2 days ago [-]
Maybe one day we'll know, but for now at least that's a question for theologians and philosophers. I'm content to leave questions about what lies outside of our universe to them.
paxys 2 days ago [-]
Why does anyone need to "do it"? Who did God?
2 days ago [-]
2 days ago [-]
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
The problem is that the word “planet” refers both to cultural symbols — mythology, gods, archetypes, and the heavens — and to objects of scientific study. Those are different domains, and one of them is cultural heritage, and the other is irritating when it tries to infringe on the first one.
There’s no need for a god complex. Stop picking and choosing which planets are real. Scientists can create their own, more precise words for things. Planets are sacred. Things that clear their orbits are not.
You can’t subdue the public into giving up their gods out of difference to science — you’re just losing people.
zzo38computer 2 days ago [-]
I think not quite, although many planets have the names of the gods. They called them planets due to their motion, so it is still called that. The use of the same word in different contexts can have different usages and different (but sometimes related) meanings. "Planet" is used differently in astrology than it is in science (astronomy); this isn't a contradiction (although, like any words, can sometimes result in confusion if you do not make the meaning clearly).
Timon3 2 days ago [-]
Why would a change today be such a violation of a sacred concept, when Pluto was added not even a century ago? If anything, it seems like the scientists back then had a god complex, and this would be rectifying their mistake.
odyssey7 1 days ago [-]
Scientists can do whatever they like. The problem is when they try to exert control over other scientists and members of the general public. We have both freedom of speech and freedom of association, which means the IAU has no authority to govern my own speech, and it’s irritating that so many people seem gleeful to tell me otherwise.
Timon3 23 hours ago [-]
How is the IAU trying to exert control or asserting any authority to govern your speech? I'm really having trouble seeing how the IAUs actions are in any way unusual for this kind of scientific organization, so please be specific about the consequences you expect to suffer for not following along.
And more importantly, why does the incredibly recent addition of Pluto to the list of planets not fall under scientists "try[ing] to exert control over other scientists and members of the general public"? You'd have a point if the planets were set in stone for hundreds of years, but as-is I can't follow your logic why one is okay and the other is not.
odyssey7 20 hours ago [-]
Perhaps the IAU didn’t attempt to exert any influence over the general public and perhaps they have had nothing to do with the legions who have since been irritatingly telling people that their words are scientifically incorrect, as if the IAU is an infallible god of science and that everyone must heed the IAU at all times regardless of whether they are practicing science at the particular moment.
We don’t have a problem with armchair scientists correcting people about the 1930s discovery of Pluto and how it was discussed at the time, we have a problem with armchair scientists being aggravating when people want to engage with the idea of Pluto today and refer to it as a planet.
Timon3 18 hours ago [-]
Yes, perhaps people follow their own thoughts and opinions, so perhaps they understand and accept the IAU's explanation. Just like people less than 100 years ago perhaps accepted the explanation why scientists are suddenly adding a new ninth planet!
But I have a feeling that the problem you see is just a fairly normal social mechanism: if you use words differently from the majority of people, you will keep getting corrected because:
- some people might be genuinely trying to troll/aggravate you the way you're describing
- BUT: others might genuinely think you've made a mistake and try to correct you, unaware of any discourse
- and finally, other people might just disagree and attempt to discuss
No conspiracy is necessary to meet plenty of people who disagree, and the level of accusations you're throwing around tells me you might not be able to clearly categorize everyone.
odyssey7 16 hours ago [-]
I do accept the IAU’s explanation. It’s their definition, it’s none of my business, and I’m not accountable for using it myself.
Even if the person correcting you isn’t acting like an overexcited 13-year-old jumping up to correct someone about it, you must agree that as a point of discussion — as a matter of good taste and manners — telling someone that Pluto isn’t a planet is just terribly boring by now, and if that is stated as a response to something the person was trying to say, there’s a risk that attention and energy is being diluted from the actual point? Of course it happens earnestly, but there are still all of the other times and ways that it happens.
bryanlarsen 2 days ago [-]
The main objection to calling Pluto a planet appears to be that if Pluto is a planet then up to about 200 other objects should also be called planets, that the list would be of unknown size and regularly changing.
That's an objection? No, that's a benefit! I think it'd be awesome to be regularly discovering new planets.
derbOac 2 days ago [-]
That's sort of what bothered me the most at the time. It seemed like the argument was that it was "emotional" or something to keep Pluto a planet when there might be so many of them. But I never understood why it was less "emotional" to insist that a planet be a certain size or that there should be a certain number of planets.
Timon3 2 days ago [-]
It is emotional reasoning to want Pluto to be an exception to an otherwise universal definition, because the reason for the exception are the emotions of some people.
Picking any arbitrary generic definition and applying it universally is less emotional, because there is no emotional reasoning necessary to explain why any object is or isn't a planet.
odyssey7 20 hours ago [-]
One of the parts that makes people emotional is that they’re plainly being lied to about the premise of needing a universal definition.
Scientists just ignore the rule about neighborhoods at times for convenience — how else would you claim to have found an “exoplanet” if you cannot also rule out “exo-dwarf-planets” in its neighborhood?
People can tell when a rule was added for a specific reason that the authors don’t want to say outright. It’s a sort of appeal to authority rather than a scientific claim. That’s dishonest, and people push back when authorities are dishonest with them.
We don’t make the rules, this is just what a planet is now. Wait, did you say we do make the rules? No, of course we didn’t vote on what our scientific result should be… that would be unscientific. We ARE science.
Timon3 19 hours ago [-]
> One of the parts that makes people emotional is that they’re plainly being lied to about the premise of needing a universal definition.
This makes no sense to me, can you explain WHY a universal definition is not needed?
> Scientists just ignore the rule about neighborhoods at times for convenience — how else would you claim to have found an “exoplanet” if you cannot also rule out “exo-dwarf-planets” in its neighborhood?
I might be missing a more specific critique, but IIUC, this question only makes sense to me if you presuppose that classifications must never be updated. Because otherwise, the solution is that you do the best you can with the data you have, and accept that better data might come along later and prove you missed something? The same way e.g. classifications in biology are frequently updated?
> People can tell when a rule was added for a specific reason that the authors don’t want to say outright. It’s a sort of appeal to authority rather than a scientific claim. That’s dishonest, and people push back when authorities are dishonest with them.
See, this is where you've totally lost me. I can't tell what people apparently can tell. So what is that specific reason? Do you have to wrap your allegations in so many indirect and allusions? This kind of conspiratorial-cryptic writing genuinely reminds me of flat earthers and qanon followers.
> We don’t make the rules, this is just what a planet is now. Wait, did you say we do make the rules? No, of course we didn’t vote on what our scientific result should be… that would be unscientific. We ARE science.
Did such a vote happen when Pluto got added? I genuinely don't know, but otherwise this objection makes no sense to me.
odyssey7 19 hours ago [-]
If you read Plato, you will see that defining words that already exist in some universal way is pretty much impossible. This is a humanities question, not a scientific one.
It was a fool’s errand or an act of deception to try to coerce “planet” to be a specialized word. The cracks are evident. The 2006 IAU definition doesn’t work.
Specialized words are great. They are important in science. “Planet” is not a specialized word and it has not been a specialized word for hundreds of years. Scientists did not need to somehow coerce “planet” into a specialized term to continue doing science—and if they did, there was still no reason to bother non-specialists about it, since science is its own domain where terms can be used in specialized ways.
Yes, update classifications whenever it’s useful to you. No, don’t expect other people to regard your classification system as the final word. You yourself are planning to change it anyway when it stops being useful to you, and other people have a right to categorize things differently for their own purposes — your system will be neither definitive nor universal, so it shows a lack of self-awareness to say that it is.
You mention that I make cryptic allusions. “See, this is where you've totally lost me. … So what is that specific reason? Do you have to wrap your allegations in so many indirect and allusions?” To help you to read more carefully and to apply context clues, the following is a quote from the article that this thread is about.
> To its detractors, the IAU definition seemed crafted with a specific intent. “A reason was invented to exclude Pluto,” says Kornfeld.
Timon3 18 hours ago [-]
> If you read Plato, you will see that defining words that already exist in some universal way is pretty much impossible. This is a humanities question, not a scientific one.
Nope. Just like it is okay for scientists in the field of biology to change the definition of "species" as used in their field, it is okay for the same to happen for the word "planet", even if the general public then argues everyone should use the updated definition in everyday language. That's how language happens and evolves, and that's how we got these words! If this were not the case, Pluto would never have been added as a planet. You were okay with every change until that point - yeah, of course you agree with the changes up to what you were taught, even if there's no argument for what makes them different!
You have to understand: there's no conspiracy behind the IAU that's making people argue against you! It's literally just individual people disagreeing with your disagreement.
---
Regarding your edit:
> To help you to read more carefully and to apply context clues, the following is a quote from the article that this thread is about.
> > To its detractors, the IAU definition seemed crafted with a specific intent. “A reason was invented to exclude Pluto,” says Kornfeld.
In the article, I see literally no reason given by Kornfeld to assume anything but an honest disagreement. Okay, great, they think the definition should fulfill a requirement that the majority apparently doesn't see as necessary. How do they get from this to people inventing a reason to specifically exclude Pluto? There's no reason given to assume bad faith?
odyssey7 18 hours ago [-]
Species means different things in different contexts. Have you heard of species counterpoint?
Nobody is saying biologists can’t use that word the way they see fit. It would however be ridiculous for them to ask me to stop referring to species counterpoint.
> as used in their field
Now you’re talking sense. I don’t care what they call Pluto at IAU meetings. You shouldn’t care what I call Pluto in my own home.
Timon3 18 hours ago [-]
Yes, very good, words can mean different things in different contexts!
Now consider: the public still slowly but surely follows along with changes to the classification of species, so when e.g. a species is divided into two or more species, the general population that often encounters them will most likely refer to them separately too given enough time, and the same in the other direction.
It's a simple concept: language changes, and the public likes to follow along with "mainstream" scientific use, even if often lagging behind.
odyssey7 18 hours ago [-]
I’m the person who has been explaining that the meaning of words comes from how they are used, not from how committees define them. The committees might influence people but ultimately words’ meanings come from how they are used. If you require a scientific expression of this concept, you might find distributional semantics of interest[1]. When people change how they use a word, its meaning changes. Far from having a single, universal meaning, the word “planet” means a number of different things today depending on whom you ask[2].
I have been defending the right for myself and for others to continue using their own language, without harassment from others in the names of scientific bodies. There was a time when linguists would prescribe that words like “y’all” are incorrect to use, and people would be shamed and discriminated against for doing so. Armchair scientists are behind the linguists on this one. We have lost cultural heritage and seen beautiful dialects gradually shrink or disappear due to prescriptive linguistics, and we now understand the harms, and it’s time that it ended.
Yes, people are free to use words in the ways that make sense and come naturally to them. No, it is not appropriate for people to treat others with disrespect for doing so. Harassment is harassment, bullying people into changing how they speak is bullying. This is not a philosophical point, it’s about being a decent person.
Again, when you receive multiple comments disagreeing with yours and feel harassed, the likely reason is not a conspiracy to harass you until you change your mind. Of course everyone should be respectful, but as long as they're not deliberately piling on and just respond to your comment at a similar time, you have to respect their right to express disagreement just like you want the right to express yours.
odyssey7 15 hours ago [-]
Be mindful of placing words into the mouths of others.
A desire that certain people refrain from harassment is not a claim that a conspiracy exists.
A lack of originality and self-awareness is not in itself a sign that someone is conspiring with other people who lack originality and self-awareness.
18 hours ago [-]
andrewflnr 2 days ago [-]
"Discovering new planets" only has the cachet it does because there are so few of them, and they are individually so significant. It would quickly lose that significance if there were hundreds of them. To be precise, it would acquire exactly the significance it actually deserves, but having diluted the meaning of "planet" as applied to the big eight in the process. We would soon want another name for the originals to compensate.
We can still be reasonably excited about discovering new things in the solar system without pretending they're in the same category as Earth and Neptune.
odyssey7 20 hours ago [-]
With or without the IAU definition, you still end up with innumerable planets.
Scientists regularly claim to have found planets orbiting other stars. They do this even though they have no way to verify that their neighborhoods have been cleared.
And yes, you can decide that some particular things are special. That’s why culture is a big part of this. Many people consider Pluto to be special even though they are well aware that it’s not the only one out there, and that’s why they refer to it as a planet.
The idea that there would be too many planets isn’t really a problem that needed solving. Would we start classifying every dinosaur as either a T-Rex or a triceratops because otherwise there would be too many dinosaurs? It’s plainly ridiculous.
drxzcl 2 days ago [-]
> “One of the biggest flaws with the IAU definition is that you can have the same object in two different orbits,” says Kornfeld. “In one, it’s considered a planet, and in the other, it’s not considered a planet.”
So… planet Ganymede when? Or Titan?
2 days ago [-]
Syzygies 2 days ago [-]
My favorite nonfiction book in years is "Storia della pasta in dieci piatti" by Luca Cesari. The signature chapter explores the day in 2015 when celebrity chef Carlo Cracco stated on television that a clove of garlic is an ingredient that can go into amatriciana. Cesari explores the absurdity of the resulting uproar, given the actual history of the dish.
People like to make rules. Leave them be in their tree houses, unless you really like to play too. I thought it was a right of passage in high school to laugh at the French forming committees to tell peasants how to speak their native language. We haven't generalized from this example?
Who gives a rat's ass whether this governing body thinks Pluto is a planet or not?
thinkingtoilet 2 days ago [-]
This is hardly on par in terms of stupidity, but one thing you learn from flat-earthers is that humans love disagreeing with a consensus. Nothing make a certain type of person feel smarter than disagreeing with everyone. If you say the sky is blue I'm going to say it's green because I'm so smart.
waterheater 2 days ago [-]
>If you say the sky is blue I'm going to say it's green because I'm so smart.
Flat-earthers are definitely wrong about the shape of the earth, but even they admit the sky is blue, assuming they aren't afflicted with some unfortunate variety of colorblindness.
In my observations of flat-earthers, they're people who reject the consensus surrounding a particular fact because they haven't observed that fact for themselves, which doesn't make them bad people or even crazy. I do rather enjoy their attempts to measure basic scientific facts about the earth, such as when a group of flat-earthers used lasers and the ocean to measure if the earth indeed has curvature. When the evidence incontrovertibly showed the earth indeed has sufficient curvature to match the scientific consensus, many participants were quite shocked. As long as they adjusted to the consensus, or even hypothesized another theory they felt worth testing, they're not crazy, just skeptical of authority.
aceofspades19 2 days ago [-]
But how could you be alive and not have observed that the earth is curved? Why does a mountain, building or ship disappear over the horizon if the earth is not curved? That alone should be sufficient evidence to believe that the scientific consensus on this is likely to be true.
I have not observed directly that a human will die after 3 days without water but having experienced thirst & dehydration in limited amounts, I have no reason to doubt that is likely the case.
That's what I don't understand supposed "rational" flat earthers. It's fine and somewhat rational to be skeptical of authority but when the contrary idea takes enormous leaps of faith to consider, it seems weird to me to believe something for the sake of it.
waterheater 2 days ago [-]
>But how could you be alive and not have observed that the earth is curved?
I know someone who is almost 40 years old that has never left his hometown. He's a reasonable person who holds gainful employment, but from our conversations, he's never been in a skyscraper, flown on an airplane, taken a road trip into the mountains, or even hiked up a large hill, for that matter. He also lives in a land-locked city, so he's never seen the ocean. As such, he has never directly observed the earth to be curved. With all due respect, many people like him do exist in the world, and perhaps you're not acquainted with people like him.
However, he is not a flat-earther because he spends much time on the Internet reading about the way the world works outside his hometown. Basically, he believes in the truthfulness of large institutions, which really is why you and I believe the earth is round; that is, we haven't actually performed a bona fide experiment (not just going in an airplane or up a mountain) to measure the curvature of the earth for ourselves, but we trust the results of those who have, and we also accept that certain technologies like GPS as it is currently implemented can only work if the earth is round (not just in satellite orbits but also the slight-but-critical relativistic shift from a geosynchronous satellite).
>when the contrary idea takes enormous leaps of faith to consider, it seems weird to me to believe something for the sake of it.
That's cool, but many people are capable of believing in something for the sake of it. One fact that stands out to me is that we all use some amount of faith to accept that the earth is round, though perhaps not quite a leap's worth.
aceofspades19 2 days ago [-]
> With all due respect, many people like him do exist in the world, and perhaps you're not acquainted with people like him.
Fair enough.
> Basically, he believes in the truthfulness of large institutions, which really is why you and I believe the earth is round; that is, we haven't actually performed a bona fide experiment
I guess to a certain extent, but also knowing that I could perform such an experiment and come up with reproducible results. As well as the lack of any credible alternative theory that holds up to any sort of scientific rigor.
> One fact that stands out to me is that we all use some amount of faith to accept that the earth is round, though perhaps not quite a leap's worth.
I would say that it's not really faith when its reproducible. For example, there is a small amount of faith that my brakes will slow down my car when approaching a corner, but I can test the brakes to know they should work, I can perform experiments with similar mechanisms to prove the basic physics, that all would have reproducible outcomes. So while there is a small amount of faith that some catastrophic failure won't happen, I would say its categorically different to believing things with almost no evidence. There is no reproducible experiment (at least that I know of) that you can even read about that proves the earth is flat.
waterheater 2 days ago [-]
>So while there is a small amount of faith that some catastrophic failure won't happen, I would say its categorically different to believing things with almost no evidence.
Evidence is the key. I don't know where you stand on the Gettier problem debate (is all knowledge just JTBs?), but the Gettier problem and black swan events show that all the evidence can point to one thing, yet something else might actually happen. So, did you really know, or did you just believe? I guess flat-earthers just reject what 99.9% of people accept as knowledge and hold it instead as competing belief with whatever alternative system quacks well enough to pass as a duck in their squinting eyes.
thinkingtoilet 2 days ago [-]
They are absolutely crazy. There is no defending it. It is something that makes stupid people feel smart. There are easy, verifiable experiments that can be done and they refuse to accept the outcome.
waterheater 2 days ago [-]
Have you ever called someone crazy, only for them to stop dead in their tracks and say, "wow, you're completely right, how could I have been so blind?"
I haven't, and you probably haven't, though if you have, I'd love to hear that story. As I said, they're skeptical of authority and need to run the experiment themselves; some will even flip on flat-earthers who run the experiment and change their minds. Only those who perform the experiment and still refuse to accept the outcome are deserving of being left to their own crazed devices. Until then, they're just ignorant and/or weird.
Timon3 2 days ago [-]
There are many, many, many examples of exactly that happening: they run experiments, the experiments prove them wrong, and they instantly declare the experiment to be wrong. You can easily find them on YouTube, IIRC a flat earth documentary on Netflix also features exactly this at the very end.
There are of course people like grifters in the community who don't believe their own words, but the believers won't reason themselves out of this position they didn't reason themselves into.
thinkingtoilet 1 days ago [-]
My goal is not to get them to see the light. You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. These are profoundly stupid people who are confident they are right and everybody else is wrong.
odyssey7 20 hours ago [-]
Wait until you meet the people who like to feel powerful by affiliating with certain groups and movements.
belviewreview 15 hours ago [-]
I think the people who pushed to remove Pluto's status made a mistake by focusing on new discoveries. They should have told the whole story forward, starting with the thousands of years before the telescope was invented, then the gradual evolution of understanding after it was until we arrived at the idea of 9 planets plus asteroids and comets, and then the further series of discoveries since then including the Ort cloud and the Kuiper belt, and also include Newtonian physics and how the solar system was seen as stabile, but now chaotic.
Then after you tell this whole larger story the whole idea of Pluto being something other than a planet makes a lot more sense to people since it was originally based on the idea the solar system has a lot fewer types of features than we know it has.
But the Pluto planet demoters didn't do this. The started with the present decision and just referred back to the history in bits and pieces, and out of order.
And worse than not arguing for their position as effectively as they could, they missed an opportunity to get the public interested in the whole story and how it is continuing to evolve today in various ways.
pfdietz 2 days ago [-]
The obvious solution to this issue is to destroy Pluto.(*)
Many problems can be solved by application of sufficiently powerful explosives.
(*) Or, possibly, eject it from the Solar System.
wbl 2 days ago [-]
SUNDIAL says hello.
myrmidon 1 days ago [-]
Gravitational binding energy is too large.
Project sundial was ~10Gt of TNT, but dispersing Pluto would require a billion times that (~5E27J).
jsbisviewtiful 2 days ago [-]
In case anyone was curious, the Moon is bigger than Pluto. Pluto's 2/3 the size of the Moon. If any dwarf planet should be upgraded to a planet, it's Eris. Eris's diameter is over 600km bigger than Pluto's.
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
Because the IAU does not uniquely hold claim to undeniable, universal, transcendent truth that should be received without question or doubt -- or even healthy scientific disagreement -- alternate planetary definitions exist. In at least one of them, both Pluto and the Moon are planets.
tmathmeyer 2 days ago [-]
Pluto's diameter is 2376.6±1.6 km, while Eris' diameter is 2326±12 km. Perhaps you're thinking of mass instead of size?
jsbisviewtiful 1 days ago [-]
It's possible. I grabbed the numbers from Claude to save some time, highly possible Claude pulled the wrong numbers.
lenerdenator 2 days ago [-]
Aye, but what does Pluto orbit, and what does the Moon orbit?
jsbisviewtiful 2 days ago [-]
In order to be defined as a planet, an object needs to meet 3 criteria:
- Orbits a star (Pluto does and I assume that's what you were asking about)
- The object has enough mass to pull itself into a sphere (meets this criteria)
- The object has enough gravity to have cleared its nearby orbit of debris and other objects
Neither Pluto nor Eris qualify for a planet because of that last one and, like I mentioned, the Moon has more mass than Pluto and Eris. The Kuiper belt objects all have this issue, but my point was that dwarf planets are pretty small - especially compared to other objects around Sol. If you walked non-stop around the Moon it would take 91 days compared to Pluto's 62 days and Eris's 61 days.
The designation of dwarf planet is not that big of a deal imo.
20 hours ago [-]
odyssey7 20 hours ago [-]
You’re describing the planets that are conformant to the 2006-IAU specification.
vova_hn2 2 days ago [-]
Pluto orbits center of combined masses of itself and Charon, which does not lie within either of them. Also, they are both tidally locked to each other, just like Moon is tidally locked to Earth.
hn_submit 2 days ago [-]
I'm in the same camp. I believe the classification of Pluto as a dwarf planet was arbitrary and inconsistent. I mean, it's been known as a planet for almost 80 years and suddenly we demote it?
I believe someone was trying to make a name for themselves here and ignoring the history of Pluto and its discovery.
Avshalom 2 days ago [-]
I'm on team Pluto here but no, the problem was that Mike Brown found like a dozen 'planets' and no one wanted to deal with that. It was closer to preventing someone from making a name for themselves.
hn_submit 2 days ago [-]
We could simply define Pluto as the edge of our Solar System and everything beyond its orbit a Kuiper Belt Object. There's nothing wrong with that.
Why bother coming up with a pseudo-scientific requirements list for planets when these don't work for a large number of cases.
bryanlarsen 2 days ago [-]
That would include Ceres, Quaoar and Orcus as planets.
It's really hard to come up with a definition of a planet that includes Pluto but doesn't include Orcus. Orcus is very close to a mirror of Pluto that is 120 degrees out of phase. Even in name: Orcus is the Roman name for the Greek god Pluto.
hn_submit 2 days ago [-]
What part of "we define it so" did you not understand?!
bryanlarsen 2 days ago [-]
The three I listed are inside Pluto's orbit. Part of the time for the latter 2.
If you want to say that Pluto is a planet for historical reasons, that's fine. Just don't try to invent pseudo-scientific nonsense to justify it at the same time you are decrying psuedo-scientific nonsense.
autoexec 2 days ago [-]
> We could simply define Pluto as the edge of our Solar System and everything beyond its orbit a Kuiper Belt Object. There's nothing wrong with that.
There is because Pluto is inside the Kuiper Belt and just as much a part of it as all the other "planets" in there. There's nothing wrong with defining our solar system as having 8 planets plus a bunch of other stuff.
vova_hn2 2 days ago [-]
> We could simply define Pluto as the edge of our Solar System and everything beyond its orbit a Kuiper Belt Object.
A Kuiper Belt Object not being a part of Solar System doesn't make any sense. A star system is the star + all objects that orbit it. Why would you arbitrarily exclude some objects that orbit the Sun?
cobbzilla 2 days ago [-]
It was fine and dandy until Eris came along.
Eris is bigger than Pluto, so if Pluto’s a planet then so is Eris. So you have 10 planets.
And then how many other Erises are still hiding? How many planets do we have then? It must be some very large unknown number!
Holding the true number of planets to be a large unknown number was anathema to many.
The demotion of Pluto was primarily motivated by a desire for the word “planet” to refer to a fixed, never-changing number of large bodies orbiting the sun.
Izkata 2 days ago [-]
> Eris is bigger than Pluto, so if Pluto’s a planet then so is Eris. So you have 10 planets.
Which is exactly how I remember learning it at the end of highschool (discovered during my junior year): Hey, did you know we just discovered a tenth planet?
space_fountain 2 days ago [-]
The issue is that when we discovered Pluto we thought it was much bigger than it turned out to be. If it was as big as they thought then sure it would be a planet. As it is it isn’t even the most massive dwarf planet
hn_submit 2 days ago [-]
They saw a problem with the discovery of other Kuiper Belt Objects and came up with a pseudo-scientific definition to "solve" the discrepancy.
vova_hn2 2 days ago [-]
> pseudo-scientific definition
How is it pseudo-scientific?
jerf 2 days ago [-]
Or alternatively, how would any conceivable definition not be equally "psuedo-scientific"? There isn't going to be a bright, shining line. Our own Solar System is complicated enough and if we could see out into the cosmos with equal detail the lines would get even fuzzier. Judgment calls are inevitable.
saati 1 days ago [-]
Okay, so Pluto should be a planet, but then are you fighting for planetary classification of Ceres? Eris? Haumea, Makemake, Gonggong? Quaoar, Orcus, Sedna, Mani, Achlys, Aya, Chiminigugua, Varda, Ixion, Goibniu, Ritona, Uno, Varuna? 2005QY182? 2002XW93? The other 200-10000 that is very likely to lurk out there?
If you aren't you are totally inconsistent and just want what you were taught in elementary school be true.
nemomarx 2 days ago [-]
How to keep Pluto as a planet but say larger objects than it that also orbit the sun aren't planets, is the question I guess?
elictronic 2 days ago [-]
Literally say Pluto is a planet through the collective statements of parties involved.
This is like when English professors gripe about word usage in books. That's wrong, you can't do that. Then society at large does it and it becomes correct usage. We define our world.
hn_submit 2 days ago [-]
It's basically a question of definition: we define Pluto as a planet and the others as Kuiper Belt Objects (KBO)
As human beings we're allowed to make these kind of decisions. We define ourselves to be outside of the animal kingdom when we're clearly part of it and a type of animal ourselves.
wolrah 2 days ago [-]
The question would be what are the specific rules that lead to that, and how you'd apply those rules outside of our own solar system. Any rule that just calls those distant objects KBOs is specific to our own solar system which is a silly rule to be making in a world where we already knew about hundreds of exoplanets.
The question at hand is "how do we define a planet" from a universal standpoint, because it hadn't really been defined beyond an "I know it when I see it" level and that was becoming a problem.
Objective rules that do not assume you're talking about our solar system are key here, and the serious proposals basically come down to 8 planets or dozens and growing, and from a practical standpoint the former was the obvious choice IMO since all it really affects is what gets focused on in general education environments.
If you just want to make an arbitrary decision that these things are planets because you want them to be as opposed to because they meet certain criteria, that's not useful to anyone.
cobbzilla 2 days ago [-]
If you must insist on squaring the circle:
Pluto is the Princeps of Kuiper Belt Objects, the First Among Equals. It is the most honored KBO, even if it is not a planet.
ChrisClark 2 days ago [-]
But why? There is no reason to care about the classification of Pluto. Why don't you just define that you're okay with it not being a planet?
tanseydavid 2 days ago [-]
My Very Educated Mother Just Served Us Nine...uhhhm... !?
andrewflnr 2 days ago [-]
Nachos. She served us nachos.
chuckadams 2 days ago [-]
Mary's Violet Eyes Make John Stay Up Nights.
still works, how bout that?
sixothree 2 days ago [-]
The problem with demoting it lies in its beauty. Pluto is beautiful and interesting. We want it to be important. But instead of being the "last of the planets", maybe instead it should be the first of the dwarf planets.
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
> someone was trying to make a name for themselves
100%
Scientists try to coin new terms all the time. It’s great for the researcher if people actually use it. But why do that when you can just sign your name on a term everyone already uses?
Redefining “planet,” from the 9 culturally accepted symbols into something else, was a swindle. “Things that clear their orbits” could have been TTCTOs. It happens all the time, coining precise terms for things. Why should this one have been any different? The public was right to push back and to protect their mythology.
wat10000 2 days ago [-]
A swindle, really? Who got cheated out of money?
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
The asset lost in this in this case is from the commons. That is, the ability to say "the ninth planet" or "the planet Pluto" without incurring smug harassment from legions who probably couldn't explain what the IAU is.
wat10000 2 days ago [-]
Rather ironic to complain about redefining a word by abusing another word beyond recognition.
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
It’s completely unsurprising to deal with grammar policing over substance, but…
In terms of financial motives, I would reason that a motive for extending the term “planet” to cover the innumerable large objects orbiting other stars would have been as a better sales pitch to Congress. Studying “planets” lightyears away was a sort of brand hack which would have driven more funding. And when the “planets” was established as comprising a virtually infinite set, rather than simply a list of 9 known objects, the nomenclature collapsed in its usefulness, which is why the IAU started looking for a way out of its own hole.
However, as the article here discusses, the IAU’s approach has pretty much failed. It doesn’t hold up to scrutiny as a thing that’s meant to be usefully applied. How exactly do you confirm that all of those exoplanets have actually cleared their neighborhoods, or is the truth that it never actually mattered to anyone in the field?
Have any scientists or agencies written papers or reported to Congress that they discovered or studied some exoplanet — using public funds — when in fact they had no way of confirming whether its neighborhood was cleared? It sounds completely improper to me, but the reality is that it never really mattered.
wat10000 2 days ago [-]
Sorry, but how does using “swindle” in a way that’s completely divorced from how it’s normally used qualify as “grammar policing,” but comparing a small change to a scientific definition to a crime is somehow reasonable? Financial motives? Get a grip, man.
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
If you certify that you have discovered an exoplanet and you do not know whether it has cleared its neighborhood, that may be a crime under the IAU’s definition. Possibly a financial crime if research funding was involved. I’m not a lawyer, just someone who can spot a charade every now and then. My guess is the IAU would say, given the challenge, “ah, well of course we didn’t mean for our universal definition for planets to be applied outside of the Solar System!”
wat10000 2 days ago [-]
A crime? Dude. Whatever you’re on, cut the dose.
odyssey7 2 days ago [-]
Yes, of course nobody cares about this, that’s why it’s absurd to expect other people to follow it and to shame them when they don’t. Even scientists themselves are having to ignore the definition at times.
Scientific institutions: be nice or don’t be surprised when the general public votes to cut your scientific research funding or won’t accept important advice from experts.
odyssey7 16 hours ago [-]
Fun fact:
The 2006 IAU definition was explicitly scoped in a limited way so that it does not apply to anything beyond the Solar System.
Planets outside the Solar System are not held to the same level of scrutiny. Over 6000 planets have been discovered outside the solar system, and none of them are required to clear their neighborhoods to be designated as planets. The IAU’s Official Working Definition of an Exoplanet can be read at: https://www.iau.org/CommissionF2/CommissionF2/Documents.aspx
So, if someone really thinks we ought to have a universal definition for what a planet is, then they might start by having a word with the IAU.
Timon3 16 hours ago [-]
Do you have examples where data definitely shows an exoplanet that hasn't cleared the orbit?
Since the accurate detection of small non-glowing objects becomes exponentially more difficult as you look further out, that seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation - far more reasonable than the evil cabal of astronomers conspiring to defeat Pluto's defendants with organized harassment campaigns...
odyssey7 16 hours ago [-]
I have not pointed any fingers at the IAU for harassing people. But do be mindful of placing words into the mouths of others.
Timon3 16 hours ago [-]
> Perhaps the IAU didn’t attempt to exert any influence over the general public and perhaps they have had nothing to do with the legions who have since been irritatingly telling people that their words are scientifically incorrect, as if the IAU is an infallible god of science and that everyone must heed the IAU at all times regardless of whether they are practicing science at the particular moment.
You see where you are calling into question whether the IAU have something to do with the "legions" who you've been in other comments saying are harassing you?
odyssey7 16 hours ago [-]
To the contrary, I was expressing that the irritators perpetually on standby might have nothing at all to do with the IAU.
Are you a member of the IAU?
The rest of that post clarifies that this is a problem caused by certain “armchair scientists.” Members of the IAU are in fact actual scientists, not armchair ones.
kanemcgrath 1 days ago [-]
I really think dwarf planet is a fine classification. Pluto is a planet, just a really small one. Same with Eris and the other planets in the Kuiper Belt. I don’t know why the planet count of our solar system is seemingly such a Religious number. It seems as if it is the focus of why we should define what a planet is.
When I think of what a planet is, I think of a destination. Somewhere that maybe in the far future we could visit one day. I think the definition for a planet should be a body with sufficient gravity that we could reasonably orbit and land on. And we can have as many sub-classifications as we want from nano-planet to Mega-planet.
Sharlin 2 days ago [-]
This seems like the least important issue in the world to keep complaining about.
Aachen 2 days ago [-]
Deciding the color of the bike shed is easier than making important decisions about the building it sits next to. It's a well-known phenomenon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality
mhabe 2 days ago [-]
If the IAU had any sense they would have made Ceres a planet instead of axing Pluto. These decisions should be made in a way that makes funding exploratory missions as easy to sell as possible. Pluto the planet wis easier to sneak through congressional budgets than Pluto the Dwarf planet. Instead of waxing poetic on the Platonic form of planet, just draw a wide line around things people want to get probes sent too without going so broad as to lose the plot. Even better would have been to give Pluto a designation like the nearest Rim Planet, implying there are so many strange Rim Worlds for us to find and explore.
5555624 2 days ago [-]
As fare as I'm concerned, Pluto is a planet. I've got a hand-written note from Clyde Tombaugh that says so. Back in the mid-1990s, a year or two before he died, I write him asking about some astronomers who were starting to question it.
KineticLensman 2 days ago [-]
"How I Killed Pluto and Why It Had It Coming" - awesome title for an Astronomy book
drxzcl 2 days ago [-]
It’s not exactly an astronomy book. It’s more a memoir of an astronomer. But it’s funny and very well written.
Also, if you have the opportunity too see @plutokiller teach planetary science or give a lecture, I can recommend you do so!
ecliptik 2 days ago [-]
It's dumb, but whenever I see something representing the planets, I always count them. Occasionally you come across places that still include Pluto.
Most recent example I found was the Swatch MoonSwatch Collection [1], which includes the Sun, Moon, eight planets and Pluto[2].
Could someone explain what the IAU means by "clearing its orbit". For example, could we consider the Earth having not "cleared its orbit" because of the Moon? The Sun attracts the Moon more strongly that Earth does, so does that mean that the Earth doesn't fit the criteria? Or does the IAU have some sort exception for moons which they've defined some place else? I'd really appreciate if someone with more knowledge could explain.
Dylan16807 2 days ago [-]
> Could someone explain what the IAU means by "clearing its orbit".
To use a different phrase from wikipedia, "orbital dominance".
Other objects that stick around are either captured as satellites or forced into resonant orbits.
> The Sun attracts the Moon more strongly that Earth does, so does that mean that the Earth doesn't fit the criteria?
The Earth's sphere of influence goes out to about a million km, 2.5x the moon's orbit.
tehnoslow 2 days ago [-]
The claim that the IAU vote was procedurally invalid is interesting
tehologist 2 days ago [-]
OMG, I was taught there was 9 planets my whole life. I had no idea there is now 8 planets in the solar system. My very educated mother just sold nine....
kazinator 2 days ago [-]
> Pluto represents the underdog ...
I see what Schindler did there!
Oarch 2 days ago [-]
Back in school I learned the acronym:
My
Very
Easy
Method
Just
Speeds
Up
Naming
Planets
And it was so convenient! Does anyone know a good alternate now that the P is gone?
petcat 2 days ago [-]
> Does anyone know a good alternate now that the P is gone?
My Very Easy Method Just Speeds Up Naming
kazinator 13 hours ago [-]
And fitting; since by means of a vote we messed up the definition of planet, we omit from the acronym the claim that we are naming planets.
onraglanroad 23 hours ago [-]
I just remember the 4 inner rocky planets which is pretty easy, and then the giant outer planets spell JSUN.
Asteroid belt in between and the second asteroid belt (the Kuiper belt) on the outside.
Then the Oort cloud surrounding the whole thing as a shield to protect the system from alien incursion.
Aachen 2 days ago [-]
I think of them more as by properties: Mercury hasn't even an atmosphere, it's too close to the sun; Venus is a hot earth so it sits closer than us; then comes its sister planet Earth; Mars is cool by comparison and sits further away than we do. Jupiter and Saturn are harder but sit before the ice giants Uranus and Neptune, again making logical sense. Whether Jupiter or Saturn comes first, I guess there's some memorisation, with or without some sentence about it
sebbul 2 days ago [-]
Classification is a human invention… are tomatoes, cucumbers and zucchinis fruit or veggies? Non issue.
mr_toad 2 days ago [-]
In science, classification should have some predictive value. You should be able to predict the characteristics or behaviour of a class member based on its classification. For example if you classify something as a fruit you could predict that its seeds should be on the inside.
Classifying Pluto as a planet is problematic because it lacks the behaviour and characteristics of something that formed according to theories of how planets form. If you tried to describe what a planet should look like based on the nebula hypothesis, you would not be describing Pluto.
Instead it has behaviour and characteristics a lot like the many trans-Neptunian objects, so it makes more sense to classify it that way.
kazinator 13 hours ago [-]
In science, they are all fruit, but an apple is a "false fruit".
In cuisine, they are vegetables.
atmavatar 2 days ago [-]
Back in my day, we had nine planets.
bigstrat2003 2 days ago [-]
We still have nine planets. The IAU has no power to tell me what to classify things as.
wpollock 2 days ago [-]
[Edited for clarity.]
My issue with the IAU's definition is that the body must "orbit the Sun". I would prefer they said "star" instead, and excluded other stars (so a binary star means neither star is a planet).
jscd 2 days ago [-]
I truly don't get why people have so much reverence for Pluto. And, unlike something like "fruit," which has a botanical and culinary definition which serve different purposes, I really don't get why anyone would care about the non-scientific definition of planet. Maybe I'm just ignorant here: what's the cultural significance of some celestial object being considered a planet?
quickthrowman 24 hours ago [-]
Some people simply like to be a contrarian to the official or consensus position, Pluto itself has nothing to do with why some people are irrationally upset about its.
ButlerianJihad 1 days ago [-]
One of the best edutainment YouTubers made a video about Pluto's fate, and it made a lot of sense. The story goes that the IAU redefined "planet" to satisfy schoolteachers and keep curricula sane. That was the primary goal.
So in classical times, the Sun and Moon were classical planets, on the same plane as Mercury, Venus and Jupiter and all the rest. Since the Sun and Moon were planets, they could figure in astrological reckoning in certain ways. And face it, from our observer's perspective, they have a lot in common with actual planets.
In fact, the seven days of the week derive from seven planets: SUNday, MOONday, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn. (It helps if you list them in Spanish rather than Germanic tongues.) No, there was no EARTHday or URANUSday (thankful for small favors.)
And in school growing up, many of us learned the nine scientific planets as traditionally defined. Uranus, Neptune, Pluto: all great modern discoveries to add to our pantheon. So nine is a good number. Lots of people can memorize nine and keep a set of nine in our heads.
But then they discovered a tenth and an eleventh and a twelfth, and scientists began to get nervous, because something was up: there were, potentially, dozens or hundreds of "planets" to be discovered at this point, among the asteroids and among the Kuiper Belt. That's all well and good: we can name a lot of bodies out there, but school children cannot learn 3 dozen planets in a row! School teachers would never stand for it! So tedious!
So there you go: the canonical list of planets needed a hard-cap and so, they lined up the 8 we had, and found all the commonalities, crystallized those into the definition, and then circumscribed the list so that it would never again grow without bound. It's not unfair to have a lot of planetoids, or dwarf planets, or asteroids and other things, just floating around. But, the good news was that third graders wouldn't need to memorize them all, and third grade teachers wouldn't need to model a solar system of 30 wonky planetary bodies.
And it's that simple, really. 8 standard planets makes for good basic astronomy, good solid astrology going forward, and peaceful middle-school curriculum. Everything else is just semantics.
GrumpySciGuy 2 days ago [-]
Let the experts decide same with any other field.
baggy_trough 2 days ago [-]
Bring back Pluto!
gus_massa 2 days ago [-]
As the article explains, if you bring back Pluto you must include Eris too, and perhaps Makemake and Haumea if you ignore is not as round as expected, and who know how many other undiscovered small object near them. (And Ceres? I like Ceres.)
Anyway, 9 is not an option, you must choose 8 or 10+.
elictronic 2 days ago [-]
Pluto is grandfathered in through the collective Consciousness of society. Just treat it the same way as tomatoes, which are officially fruits but no child believes that crap.
gus_massa 2 days ago [-]
My daughter heard that tomatoes are fruit in YouTube, and now she wants to reclassify pumpkins and half of the vegetable as fruits.
Next time you go to the grocery, grab a cucumber and a watermelon and try to find the differences.
mr_toad 2 days ago [-]
Science doesn’t care about collective consciousness. Nor does the universe.
flerchin 2 days ago [-]
I'm on board with all the dwarf planets. MVEMCJSUNPHME should be easy to make a mnemonic.
snapcaster 2 days ago [-]
no you don't. just because some nerds say it doesn't make it true. just bring back pluto and nothing else
wolrah 2 days ago [-]
Science works on logical rules.
What logical rule would you propose that allows Pluto to be a planet without also bringing in a bunch of others?
If you just want to arbitrarily declare things are they way you like them to be, religion is over there.
snapcaster 2 days ago [-]
>What logical rule would you propose that allows Pluto to be a planet without also bringing in a bunch of others?
The rule would be: pluto is a planet, stay mad nerds
amanaplanacanal 1 days ago [-]
I don't have a dog in this fight, but the real rule appears to be "that's the way I learned it in school".
wolrah 1 days ago [-]
That sure does seem to be the only argument on the "keep Pluto around but nothing else" side, "I learned it this way and I'm done learning"
gus_massa 2 hours ago [-]
Why don't you like Eris?
drxzcl 2 days ago [-]
It’s still there. Where it always was.
jgalt212 1 days ago [-]
2 things
1. When the IAU voted to demote Pluto, it was the last day of a conference and most of the attendees had already headed home.
2. Pluto has 5 known moons. The week before the New Horizons flyby its computer crashed. This necessitated a multi day reboot. During this downtime the probe had been scheduled to be hunting for additional moons. This hunt never happened. Would Pluto still be a dwarf planet if it had 10 instead of 5 moons?
andrewdubinsky 1 days ago [-]
"Tell them Jerry, Pluto is a planet."
baggy_trough 2 days ago [-]
The correct planet criteria are, IMHO:
- not a star
- not orbiting a planet
- roundish
- greater than 1000km radius
That would restore Pluto to its rightful place and add Eris.
orwin 2 days ago [-]
Why 1000 km radius? I know that 1000k diameter might be important for cold bodies to keep their equilibrium, but what does 1000km radius give?
Because honestly anybody who played stuff like KSP RSS or any space game taking place in our solar system represented at scale with adequat orbit weirdness probably told themselves "that's Pluto? Ok i get it, not a planet".
baggy_trough 2 days ago [-]
It's just a nice round number to use as a clear boundary.
Aachen 2 days ago [-]
Why not just have it be rounded under its own gravity? Collapse two rules into one. If nice round systems with clear boundaries is what you're going for
baggy_trough 1 days ago [-]
You still have to have some subjective number to decide how round something has to be, and it admits too many small objects.
animitronix 2 days ago [-]
It's time to give it up. Nobody wants there to be 23 planets...
adolph 2 days ago [-]
It seems as though Pluto's primary problem is "clearing the neighbourhood." Given Pluto's orbit travels closer and further from the sun than Neptune, does Neptune also have the neighborhood clearing problem since it has not cleared Pluto?
In celestial mechanics, "clearing the neighbourhood" (or dynamical dominance)
around a celestial body's orbit describes the body becoming gravitationally
dominant such that there are no other bodies of comparable size other than
its natural satellites or those otherwise under its gravitational influence.[0]
Trans-neptunian objects, including Pluto, are in orbital resonance. They owe their stable orbits to the existence of Neptune.
It’s like saying Jupiter is not a planet because the Trojans exist.
beloch 2 days ago [-]
...or like saying Earth is not a planet because NEA's share our orbit.
If you have to argue that it doesn't apply to Jupiter or Earth because they are obviously planets, it implies that "clearing the neighbourhood" is a vague and not particularly useful criteria.
drxzcl 2 days ago [-]
Except I said nothing of the sort. I said the opposite.
Jupiter, Neptune and earth in your example dominate the gravity of their orbit by locking the smaller bodies into orbital reasonances.
It’s not a vague criterium. It might be an irrelevant one if you are interested in geophysics, but it’s concrete and testable.
2 days ago [-]
mr_toad 2 days ago [-]
It’s not vague or unimportant. Clearing their orbits literally made them planets because they absorbed the mass of everything they cleared out.
vova_hn2 2 days ago [-]
> other bodies of comparable size
In addition to what other commenters said about orbital resonance: Neptune has approximately 20 times bigger radius and is about 10_000 (ten thousand) times heavier. This is comparable to difference in mass between a human and a hummingbird. Could we really call them "comparable size"? I'm not sure, this is not a particularly precise term, but I would say - no.
andrewflnr 2 days ago [-]
The "Criteria" section of that article clarifies the question. Neptune holds Pluto in an orbital resonance, which qualifies as Neptune gravitationally dominating its neighborhood. Perfect, 100% clearance is not expected anyway, since that's basically impossible in a real, dirty world where things move around.
metalman 2 days ago [-]
Pluto as one of the outer Canadian planets in the Canadian solar system, which as you now know is part of the Canadian Galaxy is realy such a trifling concern back on one of the Canadian Continents that contains Canada proper the center of Universal Canada, but since there is dissent on it's status something can be done through a referendum.
go ahead,laugh, but wait till google AND wikipedia both come on board
d--b 2 days ago [-]
Humanity's need to categorize things never ceases to amaze me.
Is it Art? It's not Art! Are bananas a vegetable or a fruit? Pluto definitely is a planet! No it's not!
Jesus, what a waste of energy.
Are we just realizing that asteroids come in all sizes? Do we really need a sharp boundary between those we call planets and those we don't call planets?
Can we consider planethood a spectrum? Like should we REALLY care if someone says there are 9 planets in the solar system, and the next person says 8?
We used to say there were 3 oceans, now there are 5. In reality, there's just one big saltwater lake. Do people fight about where one ocean ends and where the next one starts?
Let them call pluto a planet if they want, let them call pluto a kuiper object.
We shouldn't give a fuck.
mr_toad 2 days ago [-]
Not classifying things seems like a really good way to get your fingers burnt, or get poisoned, starved, or eaten, drowned, or die in many different interesting ways.
d--b 1 days ago [-]
So, let me get that straight: calling Pluto a planet or not is now a matter of life and death?
heyitsmedotjayb 2 days ago [-]
It's been renamed to Planet America, thank you for your attention on this matter.
No, there is no flaw in this, and moreover there is nothing new in this. This is how it has always been, it is not something invented recently.
In the Solar System, there are 3 Mercury-sized satellites and other 3 Moon-sized satellites, besides the Moon. If they had not been in their orbits as satellites, they might have very well been planets. Therefore the old definition of "planet" also depended on the orbit of the body, not only on the size and shape of the body.
Most of those satellites are bigger than Pluto. Triton, the biggest satellite of Neptune, had been in the distant past another planet with an orbit close to Pluto, but it was captured by Neptune and it has become a satellite. Otherwise it would have remained a "dwarf planet", orbiting close to Pluto. So Triton was demoted from "planet" to "satellite", by Nature, not by a human organization.
The current definition of "planets" and "dwarf planets" is fine.
If anything, there are too few planet classes, not too many. A more useful classification is into big planets, medium planets and small or dwarf planets, where the Solar system has 4 big planets, 4 medium planets, and a lot of small planets.
The big planets, i.e. which are big enough to retain the volatile chemical elements, like hydrogen and noble gases, not only the refractory elements, have a very different chemical composition from the medium planets, and this difference will also exist in any other stellar system that has condensed from gases like those at the origin of the Solar System, with more oxygen than carbon (there exists the possibility of stellar systems with a different chemical composition than the Solar System, formed by condensing from gas mixtures with more carbon than oxygen).
It’s serviceable, but is it ideal?
What’s the scientific advantage in categorising “planets” and “dwarf planets” as two separate categories, compared to unifying them into a single category (possibly while retaining the distinction as two different subtypes of “planet”)?
Which system would be more scientifically useful? Which would be more parsimonious?
- a gang of dwarfs
- some rocky ones
- and gas giants
- and one star to rule them all
As I understand it, in fact, there was discussion about defining systems like Earth-Moon as double planets, but that didn't make it into the final definition.
Huh?
1. Yes, there are culturally significant things that have happened since the 1930s, including the discovery of Pluto and its designation as being a planet. In fact, in 2006 -- far more recently -- a group of people got together -- known as the IAU -- and they also performed a cultural act amongst themselves when they decided to stop calling Pluto a planet, undertaking a social process ("voting") in adopting criteria for doing so.
2. If you would rather define a planet as a wandering star that's visible to unaided humans in the night sky, I'd respect that, and I kind of like the idea. It's somewhat romantic, and it avoids the myriad issues that the article here discusses that have caused the 2006 IAU definition to start to smell bad. However, it's really none of my business. The problem comes up when you police what other people call things, not when you decide to subscribe to the IAU of your own volition.
Because apparently sometimes between the moment I left elementary school and he went there, some dudes decided that Pluto didn't qualify as a planet after all.
Our understanding of the universe is after all quite rudimentary. How many centuries did people fantasise about forests on Venus?
You would think this group of well educated, critically thinking adults would go "sure", but something fundamental in their brains just refuses to let them accept this meaningless change to their lives.
Now scale this up to actual impactful topics like religion, politics, relationships, race and more and most conflicts around the world start to make sense.
It’s plainly un-American to have speech governed by a committee. Thankfully, the IAU has no authority over me. Why won’t people leave me alone over my decision to not tether my own positions about how I use my own native language to the whims of the IAU? It’s as if we have thoughtcrimes now, with vigilante irritators at the ready.
(I say this as someone who doesn't care either way whether Pluto is a planet or not.)
I vote we cut science funding for universities since the humanities are clearly going through difficult times.
Historically and culturally, Pluto is considered a planet. An IAU classification shouldn't be used to try and retroactively change that, because the IAU does not have control over history and culture. It's a fun fact (did you know that Pluto is not classified as a planet by astronomers?) not a diktat.
Similarly, a banana is 'officially' a berry, which means that it is classified as a berry by botanists. This does not mean it is considered a berry in any other contexts. If you told someone you had made a berry crumble and it was filled with bananas, you would look strange. We have countless examples of this (often focused around food): a tomato does not belong in a fruit salad no matter what botanists say.
Different terms are used with different specificity in different settings. Language and culture and [older disciplines] are not governed by the rules of [newer disciplines or bodies]. If people with 'I love space' t-shirts would stop "um actually"-ing, no one would have a problem.
A very brief period of history. Give it 50 years and the number of people who will call it a planet will be close to 0.
Let's not overstate Pluto's significance in culture. People call it a planet only because that's what they were taught in school. Not because of other (very few) cultural references. As it has been dropped from the curriculum, so shall it be dropped from people's minds.
Compared to the other planets it's rarely referred to in stories, etc. It has very little significance in today's culture beyond the fact that it was taught in school.
That's not the case for something like Jupiter. If they decided tomorrow that gas giants are no longer planets, it will remain in arts and culture. Pluto? Highly unlikely.
I don't think my kid knows about Pluto. That doesn't bother me in the slightest.
It's an odd way to analyze it. Plenty of things have been known for longer and it doesn't bother us if they're not taught in school, etc.
When people stop referring to Pluto as a planet, it will cease to be one.
Until then, we are living in a reality in which Pluto both is a planet and is not a planet, depending on the context.
I'm not disagreeing. What I'm saying is that compared to most other planets, people are going to stop referring to Pluto as a planet, by the mere fact that they'll stop teaching it in school. It has no cultural momentum unlike Mars, Venus, etc.
Botanical berries: Bananas, tomatoes, grapes, cucumbers, eggplants, avocados and peppers, but NOT strawberries, raspberries, blackberries or mulberries.
Scientists really should have made up their own categories instead of using our words.
If they could do it all over again probably most of them would. The sciences all grew organically too. Some of these things like "berries" aren't even just the product of one reclassification, they're the product of several over the course of decades or centuries, which is how they get so common-sense silly over time.
Doesn't really matter. The public would end up taking science words for their own purposes to sound legitimate. Look at how "quantum" and "energy" is used in alternative medicine.
The word “planet” signifying a certain reverence, and the fact that a scientific body was now policing everyday language — for the apparently petty reason that we should not honor Pluto as we once did — it was quite a misstep for how people in the public might view science going forward. Unless, perhaps, the idea was to make people more skeptical of scientific results and statements.
That would also have had an impact on the public view of science. Perhaps not as bad, but it would have had an impact.
If you believe in the "standard 9" you're just insisting on returning to a scientific definition of planets but one that is frozen on our scientific understanding from a few decades ago...
If we're segmenting off "modern astronomy" then Pluto wasn't even discovered yet.
And we discovered Ceres long before Pluto. It would be pretty rude to keep excluding Ceres just because we knew about the asteroid belt before we knew about the Kuiper belt.
I’m not a member of the IAU. I don’t adhere to their linguistic prescriptivism, and nobody should expect that I will. Some of their own members do not — the article here explains.
Are you a member of the IAU?
I’m not the IAU, and I have no interest whatsoever in emboldening thousands of people to smugly harass you or anybody else about it.
I’d encourage you to think about the impact of science fiction on interest in science. Culture is an extremely powerful force. I don’t think your concern would bear out.
As the article here explains, the 2006 IAU definition doesn’t really make sense or function as a useful model for what a planet is.
This is the actual problem everywhere.
Conclusively, science class would not teach Pluto as a planet (it should after all stick to the science) and English class will discuss the cultural impact of planet Pluto! Maybe write poems about the importance and impact of 9 word mnemonics? Sounds fun.
My headcanon is that people would hate it so so much! I can't wait to see that as a distant observer.
People need to understand the dynamic between science and society, because that is an important part of how the world works today.
Pluto is an exemplar.
And also, the value of culture. It might not be a scientific result, but it still shapes our experience of the world. Pluto is beloved.
It honestly doesn't have to be a bunch of drama. The problem will pretty much go away after the current generation who grew up learning about Pluto as a planet dies off and gets replaced by a generation who always knew that there were only 8 planets in our solar system. Hopefully they'll also be better prepared to accept changes that come from better understanding.
But that’s not what happened here. The definition was changed. We didn’t learn anything new about Pluto that made us say “ah, we thought Pluto had a solid core but apparently it doesn’t, so it’s not a planet”. All the relevant facts about Pluto remained the same. The reason why it’s no longer considered a planet is because of the term ‘planet’, not because of Pluto.
What would you say to scientists and laypersons who consider Pluto to be a planet? How would you persuade them to your own viewpoint? Please give at least three examples and use at least three paragraphs.
Some people remember being told that it was a planet when they were kids and they cling to that even though we've learned that it doesn't make sense to call it a planet anymore.
Apart from that it shows up as a planet in literature, almost all of which was written before we knew better, just like how the idea of earth being at the center of the universe shows up in literature and was once a part of our culture. The geocentric model had passionate holdouts too, but we've mostly moved on from that idea since and I think we're better off for it.
For scientists and laypersons who aren't just holding onto "planet" for sentimental reasons, I'd recommend the book "How I Killed Pluto and Why It Had It Coming"
The word “planet” is neither true nor false. Different people use it to refer to different things.
Kind of like the word “tree.” Some things are trees and some things are not — and it really depends on whom you ask and when you ask them. Most people are able to get along and allow people to refer to whatever trees they want to, because it’s a free country and it really doesn’t make sense to try to control other people over something like that.
No one is trying to control you by defining what words mean. In fact, you're still fully free to call anything you like whatever you want. You risk being misunderstood in certain contexts or assumed to be ignorant in others, but no one will stop you. My guess is that what you personally call a planet or not wont come up very often and will matter very little to anyone else.
My language has become politicized. Either I go with the flow and surrender something about my own language, or I risk getting called out or misunderstood as being incorrect if I continue.
It’s easier to let them think they corrected you than to explain your position. People believing that correcting others over superficial word choices counts as being scientific… it’s disappointing.
"Fuck off"
> How would you persuade them to your own viewpoint?
I wouldn't. I don't care about them.
> Please give at least three examples and use at least three paragraphs.
Fuck off!!!
I disagree. Quibbling about a definition like that is like quibbling about whether a certain bird is a black-crowned Night-Heron or a black-crowned Night Heron (without the second hyphen), which is a real controversy that took place.
I suppose it shows a socially constructed, human aspect of science, but it really has very little to do with actually understanding the universe. The universe doesn’t care about our arbitrary stamp-collection-style classification of objects. There’s no equation or physical theory that describes the difference in any meaningful way.
The universe doesn’t care about our arbitrary stamp-collection-style classification of objects, anymore than it cares about where elements sit on the periodic table, but for us humans having things classified and ordered is a big deal. It's our constant arbitrary naming and organizing and classifying that allows letters to get delivered to my house and packets to reach my network. It gives us more precise language and enables better focus on what matters. It helps build a foundation for teaching and research. It helps to catalogue all we've learned. While you'll find plenty of ego fueled petty squabbles around the naming and classifying of things, it's still a pretty big part of what science does and we'd struggle to teach or coordinate any sort of meaningful science without it.
In many ways, the Pluto situation is an example of the Buddhist metaphor about the finger pointing at the moon. The finger is not the moon. Obsessing over the definition of "planet" to that degree doesn't actually achieve anything useful - it's a classic example of confusing labels with the thing being labeled.
The Pluto "controversy" was just bad "science" being committed by a committee.
There are people who feel that it's worth classifying all the objects in our solar system and that doing so is useful. It's pretty much always been that way. The original definition of "planet" was used to classify things visible in the sky and the criteria was simply "stars that moved". The Sun and Moon were "planets". Asteroids were "planets". We've been constantly updating our classifications ever since as new information became available (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_planets).
Pluto was discovered in 1930 after a pair of photographs showed another light in the sky had moved. Until the 1990s we thought Pluto was alone out there at the edge of our solar system, but then we discovered 15760 Albion, followed by another new "planet" named (181708) 1993 FW followed by the discovery of hundreds of other tiny objects until it was realized that Pluto wasn't alone at all. There was a massive belt containing a vast number of small objects past Neptune and Pluto was just one of those small objects (see https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Kuiper_b...). The discovery of a bunch of objects of similar size and composition to Pluto, Eris in particular, made it clear that Pluto just wasn't like the other planets in our system. We had 8 large planets that acted similarly and one tiny planet that was unlike the others because it was just part of a much larger system of smaller objects.
It made perfect sense to refine our definition of what a planet was taking our new understanding into account. It's also reasonable that the job of doing that wouldn't fall to one person to decide on their own. The International Astronomical Union was already responsible for maintaining a set of astronomical naming conventions from the names of stars to the names of specific planetary features like craters. Since we wanted to have a standardized distinction between planets, moons, asteroids and comets and all the other objects in space who else do you think should do that? Having a committee of experts from all over the world seems as close to an ideal as you can get.
As for the definition they settled on being "bad science", it was debated and voted on. There were alternatives proposed, but none of them won out. If somebody ever comes up with something that is clearly better, especially as we learn more about objects outside of our solar system, that option can also be considered and voted on. What other process should we have for those kinds of decisions?
Up to a point. Part of my point is that the specificity of the new definition of "planet" is a bit silly. It's completely arbitrary. It's certainly not uniquely correct in any sense.
It's also a kind of post-hoc definition which assumes our specific Solar System. For example, let's say you had a rocky body, around the size of Mercury, that had a very eccentric orbit that only reached the Kuiper Belt every few hundred years, at its apoapsis. Would this object "clear its orbit"? Hard to say - the IAU definition isn't precise enough to answer this.
The IAU definition is basically the answer to the question: how do we label the closest eight planets to the Sun as planets without saying that's what we're doing, because we don't want to have to add a whole bunch of KBOs to the list of planets?
None of what the IAU did here constitutes anything resembling real science.
It gets worse. Whales and dolphins are more closely related to certain fish than those fish are related to some other fish. (As are we by the way.) There are also some fish, such as lungfish or certain eels which can spend more time out of water than whales and dolphins can. Some fish can even breathe air, which undermines another assumption about whales etc.
For some reason, I rarely hear fewer people objecting to jellyfish or shellfish being referred to as fish, even though these are more distantly related to fish than mammals are.
So biologically, the term "fish" doesn't make much sense.
As others have stated, there appears to be some kind of spectrum. Some of the inner planets have more in common with the moons of Jupiter and Saturn in some regards, than they do with Jupiter and Saturn themselves. For a start they have a surface that can be landed on. (Maybe not so much in the case of Venus or Io!!!)
Pluto's most obvious problem is that it is too similar in size to a large number of other objects. But it does have some resemblances to planets and larger moons. I'm not keen on the phrase "dwarf planet" because it makes me think of objects that are much smaller than Pluto is.
Have whatever emotional relationship you like with "Pluto" and don't wait around for others to validate it. It's fine. Nobody can stop you. I'm a bit fond of Ceres myself. Nobody can stop me. Nobody needs to approve it. Take control. Write your own headcanon.
There’s no need for a god complex. Stop picking and choosing which planets are real. Scientists can create their own, more precise words for things. Planets are sacred. Things that clear their orbits are not.
You can’t subdue the public into giving up their gods out of difference to science — you’re just losing people.
And more importantly, why does the incredibly recent addition of Pluto to the list of planets not fall under scientists "try[ing] to exert control over other scientists and members of the general public"? You'd have a point if the planets were set in stone for hundreds of years, but as-is I can't follow your logic why one is okay and the other is not.
We don’t have a problem with armchair scientists correcting people about the 1930s discovery of Pluto and how it was discussed at the time, we have a problem with armchair scientists being aggravating when people want to engage with the idea of Pluto today and refer to it as a planet.
But I have a feeling that the problem you see is just a fairly normal social mechanism: if you use words differently from the majority of people, you will keep getting corrected because:
- some people might be genuinely trying to troll/aggravate you the way you're describing
- BUT: others might genuinely think you've made a mistake and try to correct you, unaware of any discourse
- and finally, other people might just disagree and attempt to discuss
No conspiracy is necessary to meet plenty of people who disagree, and the level of accusations you're throwing around tells me you might not be able to clearly categorize everyone.
Even if the person correcting you isn’t acting like an overexcited 13-year-old jumping up to correct someone about it, you must agree that as a point of discussion — as a matter of good taste and manners — telling someone that Pluto isn’t a planet is just terribly boring by now, and if that is stated as a response to something the person was trying to say, there’s a risk that attention and energy is being diluted from the actual point? Of course it happens earnestly, but there are still all of the other times and ways that it happens.
That's an objection? No, that's a benefit! I think it'd be awesome to be regularly discovering new planets.
Picking any arbitrary generic definition and applying it universally is less emotional, because there is no emotional reasoning necessary to explain why any object is or isn't a planet.
Scientists just ignore the rule about neighborhoods at times for convenience — how else would you claim to have found an “exoplanet” if you cannot also rule out “exo-dwarf-planets” in its neighborhood?
People can tell when a rule was added for a specific reason that the authors don’t want to say outright. It’s a sort of appeal to authority rather than a scientific claim. That’s dishonest, and people push back when authorities are dishonest with them.
We don’t make the rules, this is just what a planet is now. Wait, did you say we do make the rules? No, of course we didn’t vote on what our scientific result should be… that would be unscientific. We ARE science.
This makes no sense to me, can you explain WHY a universal definition is not needed?
> Scientists just ignore the rule about neighborhoods at times for convenience — how else would you claim to have found an “exoplanet” if you cannot also rule out “exo-dwarf-planets” in its neighborhood?
I might be missing a more specific critique, but IIUC, this question only makes sense to me if you presuppose that classifications must never be updated. Because otherwise, the solution is that you do the best you can with the data you have, and accept that better data might come along later and prove you missed something? The same way e.g. classifications in biology are frequently updated?
> People can tell when a rule was added for a specific reason that the authors don’t want to say outright. It’s a sort of appeal to authority rather than a scientific claim. That’s dishonest, and people push back when authorities are dishonest with them.
See, this is where you've totally lost me. I can't tell what people apparently can tell. So what is that specific reason? Do you have to wrap your allegations in so many indirect and allusions? This kind of conspiratorial-cryptic writing genuinely reminds me of flat earthers and qanon followers.
> We don’t make the rules, this is just what a planet is now. Wait, did you say we do make the rules? No, of course we didn’t vote on what our scientific result should be… that would be unscientific. We ARE science.
Did such a vote happen when Pluto got added? I genuinely don't know, but otherwise this objection makes no sense to me.
It was a fool’s errand or an act of deception to try to coerce “planet” to be a specialized word. The cracks are evident. The 2006 IAU definition doesn’t work.
Specialized words are great. They are important in science. “Planet” is not a specialized word and it has not been a specialized word for hundreds of years. Scientists did not need to somehow coerce “planet” into a specialized term to continue doing science—and if they did, there was still no reason to bother non-specialists about it, since science is its own domain where terms can be used in specialized ways.
Yes, update classifications whenever it’s useful to you. No, don’t expect other people to regard your classification system as the final word. You yourself are planning to change it anyway when it stops being useful to you, and other people have a right to categorize things differently for their own purposes — your system will be neither definitive nor universal, so it shows a lack of self-awareness to say that it is.
You mention that I make cryptic allusions. “See, this is where you've totally lost me. … So what is that specific reason? Do you have to wrap your allegations in so many indirect and allusions?” To help you to read more carefully and to apply context clues, the following is a quote from the article that this thread is about.
> To its detractors, the IAU definition seemed crafted with a specific intent. “A reason was invented to exclude Pluto,” says Kornfeld.
Nope. Just like it is okay for scientists in the field of biology to change the definition of "species" as used in their field, it is okay for the same to happen for the word "planet", even if the general public then argues everyone should use the updated definition in everyday language. That's how language happens and evolves, and that's how we got these words! If this were not the case, Pluto would never have been added as a planet. You were okay with every change until that point - yeah, of course you agree with the changes up to what you were taught, even if there's no argument for what makes them different!
You have to understand: there's no conspiracy behind the IAU that's making people argue against you! It's literally just individual people disagreeing with your disagreement.
---
Regarding your edit:
> To help you to read more carefully and to apply context clues, the following is a quote from the article that this thread is about.
> > To its detractors, the IAU definition seemed crafted with a specific intent. “A reason was invented to exclude Pluto,” says Kornfeld.
In the article, I see literally no reason given by Kornfeld to assume anything but an honest disagreement. Okay, great, they think the definition should fulfill a requirement that the majority apparently doesn't see as necessary. How do they get from this to people inventing a reason to specifically exclude Pluto? There's no reason given to assume bad faith?
Nobody is saying biologists can’t use that word the way they see fit. It would however be ridiculous for them to ask me to stop referring to species counterpoint.
> as used in their field
Now you’re talking sense. I don’t care what they call Pluto at IAU meetings. You shouldn’t care what I call Pluto in my own home.
Now consider: the public still slowly but surely follows along with changes to the classification of species, so when e.g. a species is divided into two or more species, the general population that often encounters them will most likely refer to them separately too given enough time, and the same in the other direction.
It's a simple concept: language changes, and the public likes to follow along with "mainstream" scientific use, even if often lagging behind.
I have been defending the right for myself and for others to continue using their own language, without harassment from others in the names of scientific bodies. There was a time when linguists would prescribe that words like “y’all” are incorrect to use, and people would be shamed and discriminated against for doing so. Armchair scientists are behind the linguists on this one. We have lost cultural heritage and seen beautiful dialects gradually shrink or disappear due to prescriptive linguistics, and we now understand the harms, and it’s time that it ended.
Yes, people are free to use words in the ways that make sense and come naturally to them. No, it is not appropriate for people to treat others with disrespect for doing so. Harassment is harassment, bullying people into changing how they speak is bullying. This is not a philosophical point, it’s about being a decent person.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributional_semantics
[2] https://xkcd.com/927/
A desire that certain people refrain from harassment is not a claim that a conspiracy exists.
A lack of originality and self-awareness is not in itself a sign that someone is conspiring with other people who lack originality and self-awareness.
We can still be reasonably excited about discovering new things in the solar system without pretending they're in the same category as Earth and Neptune.
Scientists regularly claim to have found planets orbiting other stars. They do this even though they have no way to verify that their neighborhoods have been cleared.
And yes, you can decide that some particular things are special. That’s why culture is a big part of this. Many people consider Pluto to be special even though they are well aware that it’s not the only one out there, and that’s why they refer to it as a planet.
The idea that there would be too many planets isn’t really a problem that needed solving. Would we start classifying every dinosaur as either a T-Rex or a triceratops because otherwise there would be too many dinosaurs? It’s plainly ridiculous.
So… planet Ganymede when? Or Titan?
People like to make rules. Leave them be in their tree houses, unless you really like to play too. I thought it was a right of passage in high school to laugh at the French forming committees to tell peasants how to speak their native language. We haven't generalized from this example?
Who gives a rat's ass whether this governing body thinks Pluto is a planet or not?
Flat-earthers are definitely wrong about the shape of the earth, but even they admit the sky is blue, assuming they aren't afflicted with some unfortunate variety of colorblindness.
In my observations of flat-earthers, they're people who reject the consensus surrounding a particular fact because they haven't observed that fact for themselves, which doesn't make them bad people or even crazy. I do rather enjoy their attempts to measure basic scientific facts about the earth, such as when a group of flat-earthers used lasers and the ocean to measure if the earth indeed has curvature. When the evidence incontrovertibly showed the earth indeed has sufficient curvature to match the scientific consensus, many participants were quite shocked. As long as they adjusted to the consensus, or even hypothesized another theory they felt worth testing, they're not crazy, just skeptical of authority.
I have not observed directly that a human will die after 3 days without water but having experienced thirst & dehydration in limited amounts, I have no reason to doubt that is likely the case.
That's what I don't understand supposed "rational" flat earthers. It's fine and somewhat rational to be skeptical of authority but when the contrary idea takes enormous leaps of faith to consider, it seems weird to me to believe something for the sake of it.
I know someone who is almost 40 years old that has never left his hometown. He's a reasonable person who holds gainful employment, but from our conversations, he's never been in a skyscraper, flown on an airplane, taken a road trip into the mountains, or even hiked up a large hill, for that matter. He also lives in a land-locked city, so he's never seen the ocean. As such, he has never directly observed the earth to be curved. With all due respect, many people like him do exist in the world, and perhaps you're not acquainted with people like him.
However, he is not a flat-earther because he spends much time on the Internet reading about the way the world works outside his hometown. Basically, he believes in the truthfulness of large institutions, which really is why you and I believe the earth is round; that is, we haven't actually performed a bona fide experiment (not just going in an airplane or up a mountain) to measure the curvature of the earth for ourselves, but we trust the results of those who have, and we also accept that certain technologies like GPS as it is currently implemented can only work if the earth is round (not just in satellite orbits but also the slight-but-critical relativistic shift from a geosynchronous satellite).
>when the contrary idea takes enormous leaps of faith to consider, it seems weird to me to believe something for the sake of it.
That's cool, but many people are capable of believing in something for the sake of it. One fact that stands out to me is that we all use some amount of faith to accept that the earth is round, though perhaps not quite a leap's worth.
Fair enough.
> Basically, he believes in the truthfulness of large institutions, which really is why you and I believe the earth is round; that is, we haven't actually performed a bona fide experiment
I guess to a certain extent, but also knowing that I could perform such an experiment and come up with reproducible results. As well as the lack of any credible alternative theory that holds up to any sort of scientific rigor.
> One fact that stands out to me is that we all use some amount of faith to accept that the earth is round, though perhaps not quite a leap's worth.
I would say that it's not really faith when its reproducible. For example, there is a small amount of faith that my brakes will slow down my car when approaching a corner, but I can test the brakes to know they should work, I can perform experiments with similar mechanisms to prove the basic physics, that all would have reproducible outcomes. So while there is a small amount of faith that some catastrophic failure won't happen, I would say its categorically different to believing things with almost no evidence. There is no reproducible experiment (at least that I know of) that you can even read about that proves the earth is flat.
Evidence is the key. I don't know where you stand on the Gettier problem debate (is all knowledge just JTBs?), but the Gettier problem and black swan events show that all the evidence can point to one thing, yet something else might actually happen. So, did you really know, or did you just believe? I guess flat-earthers just reject what 99.9% of people accept as knowledge and hold it instead as competing belief with whatever alternative system quacks well enough to pass as a duck in their squinting eyes.
I haven't, and you probably haven't, though if you have, I'd love to hear that story. As I said, they're skeptical of authority and need to run the experiment themselves; some will even flip on flat-earthers who run the experiment and change their minds. Only those who perform the experiment and still refuse to accept the outcome are deserving of being left to their own crazed devices. Until then, they're just ignorant and/or weird.
There are of course people like grifters in the community who don't believe their own words, but the believers won't reason themselves out of this position they didn't reason themselves into.
Then after you tell this whole larger story the whole idea of Pluto being something other than a planet makes a lot more sense to people since it was originally based on the idea the solar system has a lot fewer types of features than we know it has.
But the Pluto planet demoters didn't do this. The started with the present decision and just referred back to the history in bits and pieces, and out of order.
And worse than not arguing for their position as effectively as they could, they missed an opportunity to get the public interested in the whole story and how it is continuing to evolve today in various ways.
Many problems can be solved by application of sufficiently powerful explosives.
(*) Or, possibly, eject it from the Solar System.
Project sundial was ~10Gt of TNT, but dispersing Pluto would require a billion times that (~5E27J).
- Orbits a star (Pluto does and I assume that's what you were asking about)
- The object has enough mass to pull itself into a sphere (meets this criteria)
- The object has enough gravity to have cleared its nearby orbit of debris and other objects
Neither Pluto nor Eris qualify for a planet because of that last one and, like I mentioned, the Moon has more mass than Pluto and Eris. The Kuiper belt objects all have this issue, but my point was that dwarf planets are pretty small - especially compared to other objects around Sol. If you walked non-stop around the Moon it would take 91 days compared to Pluto's 62 days and Eris's 61 days.
The designation of dwarf planet is not that big of a deal imo.
I believe someone was trying to make a name for themselves here and ignoring the history of Pluto and its discovery.
Why bother coming up with a pseudo-scientific requirements list for planets when these don't work for a large number of cases.
It's really hard to come up with a definition of a planet that includes Pluto but doesn't include Orcus. Orcus is very close to a mirror of Pluto that is 120 degrees out of phase. Even in name: Orcus is the Roman name for the Greek god Pluto.
If you want to say that Pluto is a planet for historical reasons, that's fine. Just don't try to invent pseudo-scientific nonsense to justify it at the same time you are decrying psuedo-scientific nonsense.
There is because Pluto is inside the Kuiper Belt and just as much a part of it as all the other "planets" in there. There's nothing wrong with defining our solar system as having 8 planets plus a bunch of other stuff.
A Kuiper Belt Object not being a part of Solar System doesn't make any sense. A star system is the star + all objects that orbit it. Why would you arbitrarily exclude some objects that orbit the Sun?
Eris is bigger than Pluto, so if Pluto’s a planet then so is Eris. So you have 10 planets.
And then how many other Erises are still hiding? How many planets do we have then? It must be some very large unknown number!
Holding the true number of planets to be a large unknown number was anathema to many.
The demotion of Pluto was primarily motivated by a desire for the word “planet” to refer to a fixed, never-changing number of large bodies orbiting the sun.
Which is exactly how I remember learning it at the end of highschool (discovered during my junior year): Hey, did you know we just discovered a tenth planet?
How is it pseudo-scientific?
If you aren't you are totally inconsistent and just want what you were taught in elementary school be true.
This is like when English professors gripe about word usage in books. That's wrong, you can't do that. Then society at large does it and it becomes correct usage. We define our world.
As human beings we're allowed to make these kind of decisions. We define ourselves to be outside of the animal kingdom when we're clearly part of it and a type of animal ourselves.
The question at hand is "how do we define a planet" from a universal standpoint, because it hadn't really been defined beyond an "I know it when I see it" level and that was becoming a problem.
Objective rules that do not assume you're talking about our solar system are key here, and the serious proposals basically come down to 8 planets or dozens and growing, and from a practical standpoint the former was the obvious choice IMO since all it really affects is what gets focused on in general education environments.
If you just want to make an arbitrary decision that these things are planets because you want them to be as opposed to because they meet certain criteria, that's not useful to anyone.
Pluto is the Princeps of Kuiper Belt Objects, the First Among Equals. It is the most honored KBO, even if it is not a planet.
still works, how bout that?
100%
Scientists try to coin new terms all the time. It’s great for the researcher if people actually use it. But why do that when you can just sign your name on a term everyone already uses?
Redefining “planet,” from the 9 culturally accepted symbols into something else, was a swindle. “Things that clear their orbits” could have been TTCTOs. It happens all the time, coining precise terms for things. Why should this one have been any different? The public was right to push back and to protect their mythology.
In terms of financial motives, I would reason that a motive for extending the term “planet” to cover the innumerable large objects orbiting other stars would have been as a better sales pitch to Congress. Studying “planets” lightyears away was a sort of brand hack which would have driven more funding. And when the “planets” was established as comprising a virtually infinite set, rather than simply a list of 9 known objects, the nomenclature collapsed in its usefulness, which is why the IAU started looking for a way out of its own hole.
However, as the article here discusses, the IAU’s approach has pretty much failed. It doesn’t hold up to scrutiny as a thing that’s meant to be usefully applied. How exactly do you confirm that all of those exoplanets have actually cleared their neighborhoods, or is the truth that it never actually mattered to anyone in the field?
Have any scientists or agencies written papers or reported to Congress that they discovered or studied some exoplanet — using public funds — when in fact they had no way of confirming whether its neighborhood was cleared? It sounds completely improper to me, but the reality is that it never really mattered.
Scientific institutions: be nice or don’t be surprised when the general public votes to cut your scientific research funding or won’t accept important advice from experts.
The 2006 IAU definition was explicitly scoped in a limited way so that it does not apply to anything beyond the Solar System.
Planets outside the Solar System are not held to the same level of scrutiny. Over 6000 planets have been discovered outside the solar system, and none of them are required to clear their neighborhoods to be designated as planets. The IAU’s Official Working Definition of an Exoplanet can be read at: https://www.iau.org/CommissionF2/CommissionF2/Documents.aspx
So, if someone really thinks we ought to have a universal definition for what a planet is, then they might start by having a word with the IAU.
Since the accurate detection of small non-glowing objects becomes exponentially more difficult as you look further out, that seems like a perfectly reasonable explanation - far more reasonable than the evil cabal of astronomers conspiring to defeat Pluto's defendants with organized harassment campaigns...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49528442
You see where you are calling into question whether the IAU have something to do with the "legions" who you've been in other comments saying are harassing you?
Are you a member of the IAU?
The rest of that post clarifies that this is a problem caused by certain “armchair scientists.” Members of the IAU are in fact actual scientists, not armchair ones.
When I think of what a planet is, I think of a destination. Somewhere that maybe in the far future we could visit one day. I think the definition for a planet should be a body with sufficient gravity that we could reasonably orbit and land on. And we can have as many sub-classifications as we want from nano-planet to Mega-planet.
Also, if you have the opportunity too see @plutokiller teach planetary science or give a lecture, I can recommend you do so!
Most recent example I found was the Swatch MoonSwatch Collection [1], which includes the Sun, Moon, eight planets and Pluto[2].
1. https://www.swatch.com/en-us/bioceramic-moonswatch-collectio...
2. https://www.swatch.com/en-us/mission-to-pluto-so33m101/SO33M...
To use a different phrase from wikipedia, "orbital dominance".
Other objects that stick around are either captured as satellites or forced into resonant orbits.
> The Sun attracts the Moon more strongly that Earth does, so does that mean that the Earth doesn't fit the criteria?
The Earth's sphere of influence goes out to about a million km, 2.5x the moon's orbit.
I see what Schindler did there!
My Very Easy Method Just Speeds Up Naming Planets
And it was so convenient! Does anyone know a good alternate now that the P is gone?
My Very Easy Method Just Speeds Up Naming
Asteroid belt in between and the second asteroid belt (the Kuiper belt) on the outside.
Then the Oort cloud surrounding the whole thing as a shield to protect the system from alien incursion.
Classifying Pluto as a planet is problematic because it lacks the behaviour and characteristics of something that formed according to theories of how planets form. If you tried to describe what a planet should look like based on the nebula hypothesis, you would not be describing Pluto.
Instead it has behaviour and characteristics a lot like the many trans-Neptunian objects, so it makes more sense to classify it that way.
In cuisine, they are vegetables.
So in classical times, the Sun and Moon were classical planets, on the same plane as Mercury, Venus and Jupiter and all the rest. Since the Sun and Moon were planets, they could figure in astrological reckoning in certain ways. And face it, from our observer's perspective, they have a lot in common with actual planets.
In fact, the seven days of the week derive from seven planets: SUNday, MOONday, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn. (It helps if you list them in Spanish rather than Germanic tongues.) No, there was no EARTHday or URANUSday (thankful for small favors.)
And in school growing up, many of us learned the nine scientific planets as traditionally defined. Uranus, Neptune, Pluto: all great modern discoveries to add to our pantheon. So nine is a good number. Lots of people can memorize nine and keep a set of nine in our heads.
But then they discovered a tenth and an eleventh and a twelfth, and scientists began to get nervous, because something was up: there were, potentially, dozens or hundreds of "planets" to be discovered at this point, among the asteroids and among the Kuiper Belt. That's all well and good: we can name a lot of bodies out there, but school children cannot learn 3 dozen planets in a row! School teachers would never stand for it! So tedious!
So there you go: the canonical list of planets needed a hard-cap and so, they lined up the 8 we had, and found all the commonalities, crystallized those into the definition, and then circumscribed the list so that it would never again grow without bound. It's not unfair to have a lot of planetoids, or dwarf planets, or asteroids and other things, just floating around. But, the good news was that third graders wouldn't need to memorize them all, and third grade teachers wouldn't need to model a solar system of 30 wonky planetary bodies.
And it's that simple, really. 8 standard planets makes for good basic astronomy, good solid astrology going forward, and peaceful middle-school curriculum. Everything else is just semantics.
Anyway, 9 is not an option, you must choose 8 or 10+.
Next time you go to the grocery, grab a cucumber and a watermelon and try to find the differences.
What logical rule would you propose that allows Pluto to be a planet without also bringing in a bunch of others?
If you just want to arbitrarily declare things are they way you like them to be, religion is over there.
The rule would be: pluto is a planet, stay mad nerds
1. When the IAU voted to demote Pluto, it was the last day of a conference and most of the attendees had already headed home.
2. Pluto has 5 known moons. The week before the New Horizons flyby its computer crashed. This necessitated a multi day reboot. During this downtime the probe had been scheduled to be hunting for additional moons. This hunt never happened. Would Pluto still be a dwarf planet if it had 10 instead of 5 moons?
- not a star
- not orbiting a planet
- roundish
- greater than 1000km radius
That would restore Pluto to its rightful place and add Eris.
Because honestly anybody who played stuff like KSP RSS or any space game taking place in our solar system represented at scale with adequat orbit weirdness probably told themselves "that's Pluto? Ok i get it, not a planet".
It’s like saying Jupiter is not a planet because the Trojans exist.
If you have to argue that it doesn't apply to Jupiter or Earth because they are obviously planets, it implies that "clearing the neighbourhood" is a vague and not particularly useful criteria.
Jupiter, Neptune and earth in your example dominate the gravity of their orbit by locking the smaller bodies into orbital reasonances.
It’s not a vague criterium. It might be an irrelevant one if you are interested in geophysics, but it’s concrete and testable.
In addition to what other commenters said about orbital resonance: Neptune has approximately 20 times bigger radius and is about 10_000 (ten thousand) times heavier. This is comparable to difference in mass between a human and a hummingbird. Could we really call them "comparable size"? I'm not sure, this is not a particularly precise term, but I would say - no.
Is it Art? It's not Art! Are bananas a vegetable or a fruit? Pluto definitely is a planet! No it's not!
Jesus, what a waste of energy.
Are we just realizing that asteroids come in all sizes? Do we really need a sharp boundary between those we call planets and those we don't call planets?
Can we consider planethood a spectrum? Like should we REALLY care if someone says there are 9 planets in the solar system, and the next person says 8?
We used to say there were 3 oceans, now there are 5. In reality, there's just one big saltwater lake. Do people fight about where one ocean ends and where the next one starts?
Let them call pluto a planet if they want, let them call pluto a kuiper object.
We shouldn't give a fuck.